# What Religion Would Europe Be If Not for Christianity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756 "2005-03-03T15:05:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/21 "2005-03-03T18:22:32Z")
I think Islam would probably be the norm… Arabs and then Turks tried to invade Europe and were barely stopped sometimes. The descentralized style of Islam would certainly not bother local elites… and Arab conquerors were quite lenient to other religions which if they had invaded properly Europe would mean they would eventually convert most. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/22 "2005-03-03T23:27:09Z")
Without christianism, I’m not convinced that Islam would have appeared in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/23 "2005-03-04T04:37:23Z")
Robert Silverberg wrote a series of linked alternate-history stories, _Roma Eterna,_ based on the assumption that the Roman Empire never fell. The POD (point of divergence) is the Exodus – Moses fails to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt. Therefore, Judaism never emerges as an important religion in the Near East, therefore Christianity never exists, nor does Islam. I found it unconvincing – that is, I don’t see how Christianity can be blamed for the fall of Rome, considering that even after the fall of the Western Empire, the Eastern Empire hung on for another thousand years with Christianity as its state religion. In any case, the Roman-ruled world (not just Europe) he describes has a religious culture rather like that of the pre-Christian Empire in OTL (our timeline): Everybody pays formal respect to the official gods of the Roman state, and otherwise there are numberless competing gods and cults. It’s a society where religious movements, as such, play no decisive role in social or political history. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/24 "2005-03-04T05:09:39Z")
Like **Regallag the Axe** , I was also wondering why the Mongols were being forgotten: [http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestEurope/MongolEurope.CP.html](http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestEurope/MongolEurope.CP.html) Christianity then barely escaped obliteration. I think if Christianity had not been there in Europe, then the Olympian and Roman gods would not have been a match for Buddha! [http://www.asia-planet.net/mongolia/religion.htm](http://www.asia-planet.net/mongolia/religion.htm) > [@](#): > > Interest in Buddhism as a national religion began with Chinggis Khan. He employed the Buddhist Uigur people as teachers and state officials. The Uigur were a respected people and had great cultural influence over the Mongols. Chinggis Khan also held meetings with Buddhist leaders during his reign. In his will, he instructed his successor, Ogedei Khan to invite a Tibetan lama to conduct Buddhist services at Kharakhorum. This engaged practicing Shamans in Kharakhorum, as pantheistic Shamanism was the traditional faith of the Mongols. As others mentioned, if Christianity had not appeared I also think Islam would not have appeared either, the middle east would have been taken by the Mongols too IMO. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/25 "2005-03-04T05:27:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I think if Christianity had not been there in Europe, then the Olympian and Roman gods would not have been a match for Buddha! The Mongols were very poor Buddhists . . . ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/26 "2005-03-04T05:46:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Mongols were very poor Buddhists . . . Yes, but at that exact moment, if they had conquered the word, Buddhism IMO would have taken the Glory. Remember that old history of “with this symbol you will win”? Religion thrives on the fortunes in the field of battle, as it happened, Christianity then took the glory, and I think the very untimely dead of the Khan just left the lamas with the “blame” of losing Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/27 "2005-03-04T06:01:53Z")
Wasn’t there a monotheistic indiginous Mongol religion, too? Something about a Sky god? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/28 "2005-03-04T06:59:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yes, but at that exact moment, if they had conquered the word, Buddhism IMO would have taken the Glory. Remember that old history of “with this symbol you will win”? Religion thrives on the fortunes in the field of battle, as it happened, Christianity then took the glory, and I think the very untimely dead of the Khan just left the lamas with the “blame” of losing Europe. The Mongols were not strongly Buddhist in Chingiz’s day and he himself was certainly not a Buddhist. They were predominately shamanist and even Chingiz’s grandson Kublai, though appearing somewhat partial to Buddhism, observed shamanist and Confucian rites as well. The first truly fervent Buddhist of any note in the east was Kublai’s grandson Temur ( 1297-1307 ) and though most of the later Yuan Toluids were staunchly Buddhist, Buddhismn appears to have lapsed once they were expelled from China in favor traditional shamanism, only to resurge in the 16th century under the patronage of Altan Khan. In the southwest Buddhism was more widespread earlier, the governor Korguz ( 1235-1242 ), a Uigur, was Buddhist. So was Kublai’s brother, the conqueror and founder of the Il-Khanate, Hulegu ( 1256-1265 ). So, more or less, were his son Abaqa ( 1265-1282 ) and grandson Arghun ( 1284-1291 ). However the were also Old School Mongol and pretty much tolerant of everyone - they made no attempt to persecute other faiths or actively promote Buddhism as a state faith ( though some Buddhists did passively enter Persia diuring this time ). While it is certainly _possible_ the Mongols may have transmitted Buddhism westward in a big way, it is probably more likely local faiths ( i.e. Zoroastrianism or its offshoots in Persia ) would have successively resisted that spread. On the Russian steppe, pastoralism replaced pastoralism - the Kipchaks were just as pagan as the invading Mongols that merged with them and that lifestyle would have favored the persistence of that. In more urban Persia state-sponsored Zoroastrianism would have been strongly entrenched ( assuming no Islam ) and the tendency would probably have been to convert to that faith ( as the Il-Khanids eventually did re: Islam ), rather than continue with a largely alien Buddhism unlikely to be adopted by the bulk of the populace. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/29 "2005-03-04T12:38:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Robert Silverberg wrote a series of linked alternate-history stories, _Roma Eterna,_ based on the assumption that the Roman Empire never fell. The POD (point of divergence) is the Exodus – Moses fails to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt. Therefore, Judaism never emerges as an important religion in the Near East, therefore Christianity never exists, nor does Islam. I found it unconvincing – that is, I don’t see how Christianity can be blamed for the fall of Rome, considering that even after the fall of the Western Empire, the Eastern Empire hung on for another thousand years with Christianity as its state religion. In any case, the Roman-ruled world (not just Europe) he describes has a religious culture rather like that of the pre-Christian Empire in OTL (our timeline): Everybody pays formal respect to the official gods of the Roman state, and otherwise there are numberless competing gods and cults. It’s a society where religious movements, as such, play no decisive role in social or political history. I’m not sure about Silverberg’s assertion that Christianity caused the fall of Rome. Also, for what it’s worth, one of the stories explains why Islam never got started in his alternate universe. The emperor sends someone to Mecca as a punishment. The guy meets Muhammad, decides that he poses a danger to Rome, and has Muhammad killed. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/30 "2005-03-04T12:54:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Mongols were very poor Buddhists . . . But very _good_ swordsmen. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756/31 "2005-03-04T14:26:49Z")
The ancient Greeks verged on atheism in many ways (or, some of them, at least). Had they continued with their steam engines and natural philosophy, who knows what he world would be like now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-religion-would-europe-be-if-not-for-christianity/292756.md?page=1)