# What remains of the Dutch history of NYC? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 6, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974 "2012-03-06T21:57:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/41 "2012-03-08T01:09:14Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Stuyvesant High School. A public high school that is one of the best high schools, public or private, in the country (or for that matter, the world). While known for math and science they also have some athletic teams that call themselves “The Flying Dutchmen”. > . More amusingly, several teams, including the football team are The Peglegs, and their mascot is Pegleg Pete, a little cartoon of Peter Stuyvesant (who had a wooden leg, see?). Note that each sport has its own team name, they aren’t all the Stuyvesant [whatevers]. > [@](#): > > So… did “going Dutch” (or “Dutch treat”) originate in NY, or Holland? I believe all mildly insulting uses of “Dutch” (ie ‘Dutch courage,’ for feeling confident after drinking alcohol) actually refer culturally to German immigrants who were at one time a large immigrant group (and who were Dutch the same way the Pennsylvania Dutch are dutch - which is to say, not all all, they’re **Deutsch** ) ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/42 "2012-03-08T01:59:56Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > More amusingly, several teams, including the football team are The Peglegs, and their mascot is Pegleg Pete, a little cartoon of Peter Stuyvesant (who had a wooden leg, see?). > > Note that each sport has its own team name, they aren’t all the Stuyvesant [whatevers]. > I believe all mildly insulting uses of “Dutch” (ie ‘Dutch courage,’ for feeling confident after drinking alcohol) actually refer culturally to German immigrants who were at one time a large immigrant group (and who were Dutch the same way the Pennsylvania Dutch are dutch - which is to say, not all all, they’re **Deutsch** ) [Wiki disagrees](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_Dutch)- > [@](#): > > The phrase “going Dutch” originates from the concept of a Dutch door. Previously on farmhouses this consisted of two equal parts (Sullivan. 2010). Another school of thought is that it may be related to Dutch etiquette. In the Netherlands, it was not unusual to pay separately when going out as a group. When dating in a one-on-one situation, however, the man will most commonly pay for meals and drinks. English rivalry with the Netherlands especially during the period of the Anglo-Dutch Wars gave rise to several phrases including Dutch that promote certain negative stereotypes. Example: Dutch courage. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/43 "2012-03-08T03:45:17Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Wiki disagrees](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_Dutch)- Well I stand corrected. Sorry y’all. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/44 "2012-03-08T04:37:48Z")
A screwed up street layout downtown. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/45 "2012-03-08T13:41:31Z")
[Kip’s Bay](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kips_Bay), a neighborhood in the east side of Manhattan. Named after Jacobus Kip. Also, the words “cookie” and “boss.” ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/46 "2012-03-08T15:36:04Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > A screwed up street layout downtown. Damn right. All neat and tidy until you hit downtown. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/47 "2012-03-08T15:45:27Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > [Kip’s Bay](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kips_Bay), a neighborhood in the east side of Manhattan. Named after Jacobus Kip. > > Also, the words “cookie” and “boss.” While those words have a Dutch etymology, as do many other English words, I don’t think either of those are effects of the Dutch being in NYC. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/48 "2012-03-08T15:53:33Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > A screwed up street layout downtown. That’sjust a function of old colonial random street layout. It’s a legacy of the Dutch Colonial days, but not typically Dutch. Boston’s North End is a legacy of the Colonial days of Boston, and are far twistier and narrower than anything at the Southern tip of Manhattan. (Stretch limos and ambulances have trouble navigating some streets in the North End). But Boston wasn’t settled by the Dutch. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/49 "2012-03-08T16:06:40Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > While those words have a Dutch etymology, as do many other English words, I don’t think either of those are effects of the Dutch being in NYC. But their path into the language leads through NYC. The words were used by the Dutch there, then picked up by the English settlers, where they spread. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/50 "2012-03-08T16:25:37Z")
I’d have thought that NYC would be sister cities with Amsterdam, but apparently not. > **[List of sister cities in New York](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sister_cities_in_New_York)** > > This is a list of sister cities in the United States state of New York. Sister cities, known in Europe as twin towns, are cities which partner with each other to promote human contact and cultural links, although this partnering is not limited to cities and often includes counties, regions, states and other sub-national entities. > Many New York jurisdictions work with foreign cities through Sister Cities International, an organization whose goal is to "promote peace through mutual respect, unde... The only major pairing in New York with the Netherlands is between Albany and Nijmegen. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/51 "2012-03-08T20:00:27Z")
_From my friend Dan, a longtime New Yorker and historian, who read this thread:_ I thought that was of the entries was particularly apt – New Amsterdam may not have had too many native Dutch speakers before it became New York City, and so a golden age of Dutch speaking may never have existed. Did the African slaves who may have built the wall where Wall Street now stands speak Dutch? Probably some, but perhaps not when alone. Setting aside the houses, churches, and cemeteries that remain in place from the New Amsterdam, and the prevalence of Dutch names (Spuyten Duyvil, Flatbush, Flatlands, Brooklyn, Peter Stuyvesant, Roosevelt, etc. . . ), I suggest that the discussion may have omitted what may be the true, enduring Dutch influence on the U.S.as shown in New Amsterdam. I don’t mean the punitive raid on New Sweden by the residents of New Amsterdam that ended Swedish colonial efforts in what has become the U.S. I mean the enduring culture and politics of capitalism that the Dutch created at New Amsterdam. New Amsterdam was not founded by Puritans, Pilgrims, Quakers, or Catholics like some other colonies; it was founded by an organization to make money and perhaps from the moment it was formed, non-Dutch were welcome because the focus was not on religious purity but on financial success. When Peter Stuyvesant sought to keep his motley colony at least Christian, his Dutch Masters refused to allow him to discriminate against the Jews who had arrived in New Amsterdam. While the Dutch are long-gone, the free market capitalism, and pro-immigration diversity have spread to most of the continent (some of the descendants of the Sephardic Jews also remain, although I don’t think that they’ve spoken Dutch for centuries). It could therefore be argued that it is easier to perceive the continuing Dutch presence in New York City than it may be to measure the presence of the religious founders of colonies (of course, the Supreme Court is now more Catholic than ever before, but . . .). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974/52 "2012-03-16T00:11:22Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > A screwed up street layout downtown. That’s not Dutch, that’s simply typical of the historic cores of European cities. Or, for that matter, many American cities too, once upon a time. You wouldn’t think it, but downtown Los Angeles once had a seemingly random layout of small streets where Old Chinatown, the Plaza, and the Civic Center area all came together–all before they built Union Station and the modern Civic Center, and realigned the streets. Though in the historical context, I wouldn’t say the layout of European cities is screwed up; it merely reflects the need to fit everything into an area that was more or less circular and defined by the defending walls. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-remains-of-the-dutch-history-of-nyc/614974.md?page=2)