What’s a good “warts and all” subject matter for a movie?

I’m sure most people haven’t heard of him, but according to his Wikipedia entry, “Gary Gygax was an American game designer best known for co-creating the pioneering tabletop roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons with Dave Arneson.” (That was a joke, probably everyone here has heard of him.)

Gygax and the meteoric success of his company TSR is the quintessential American story of a man with little more than an idea and some elbow grease going from rags to riches. Of course it’s a little more complex than that. Gygax was sometimes duplicitious, his treatment of D&D’s co-creator Dave Arneson and later his own employees at TSR, but he could also be quite generous. A movie about Gygax from around the creation of D&D to his expulsion in 1985 from the company he created would make for an interesting story. You don’t even have to care about D&D.

I think you are conflating him with later rebel Roger Mortimer and his affair with Edward II’s queen Isabella (who was the genetic kickstarter to the Hundred Years War, giving her son Edward III a claim on the throne of France).

Simon de Montfort by contrast was married, seemingly pretty happily, to Henry III’s sister Eleanor while Henry III’s wife was an altogether different Eleanor who was both dedicated to Henry and fiercely opposed to Simon during the civil war.

But it is pretty understandable that that confusion of Eleanors makes that an even easier conflation :slightly_smiling_face:.

I appears so. Well too bad it’s in the script already, no one’s watching this movie without the hot royal affair scene, so it stays dammit! :wink:

That’s like Shakespeare’s history plays…everyone seems to be named Richard, Henry, Edward, Anne, Margaret, or Elizabeth. And to muddy the waters even more…sometimes the characters go by the names of their domains. Richard III is labeled as “Gloucester” until he’s crowned.

Talking of Shakespeare…

1580s London. John Brayne and James Burbage are business partners, co-owners of a theater. Of The Theatre, actually; we call them “theaters” instead of “playhouses” today because that was the name they chose. As usual for the period, their wives Ellen (who is John’s sister as well as James’s wife) and Margaret (John’s wife) are very much involved in the family business; we know that Margaret, and presumably Ellen as well, actually did some of the manual labor in building the theater.

John and James have a falling-out, as tends to happen when you go into business with your in-laws. John accuses James of financial shenanigans. (James has a pattern of similar accusations against him.) They get into a fistfight in a notary’s office. Eventually they reach an agreement, sort of. John goes off and gets in another fight with a man named Robert Miles, who beats him severely enough that he dies shortly afterward. Margaret tries to get murder charges filed against Robert. John and Margaret have no living children at this point. James and Ellen claim that despite their differences, John was always very fond of his nephews and nieces and wanted their children to inherit his half of the business. Margaret, who was pregnant at the time of her husband’s death, claims that she and her child are the legal heirs and manages to get a court order to this effect. James invites the man serving the papers to wipe his ass with them.

James seems like a pretty bad guy, right? Cheating a poor widow and orphan. Except … next thing we know, Margaret has taken up with Robert Miles, the same man she accused of murdering her husband. He and some of his buddies go to the theater to claim Margaret’s share of the profits. Ellen and her son Richard beat them up with broomsticks. Richard tweaks Miles’s nose and mouths off to law enforcement after they arrive. Ellen calls Miles and his friends “murdering knaves.” James goes a little farther and calls Margaret a “murdering whore.” This is starting to sound less like standard sixteenth-century misogyny than like a conspiracy accusation that may actually be true. (I think I’d want my movie version of this story to be very Rashomon-ish.)

Margaret dies of the plague a few years later, leaving all of her possessions and custody of her daughter to Robert Miles, while still specifying that John and not Robert was the father of said daughter – by which point it’s starting to sound like the lady is protesting too much.

Snarky, broomstick-wielding young Richard grows up to be a very famous and very beloved actor. Think someone like Tom Hanks, in terms of public persona. One of his best-known roles is Hamlet. A role written for him by his lifelong friend, who would, as a young actor, have had a front-row seat for the whole sordid saga.

Ellen lived to be about seventy; she would have been around through the whole of Shakespeare’s career, and had a ton of institutional memory. We know her sons consulted her when they made the decision to tear down The Theatre and build the Globe from its timbers, and we know she was on the scene for the actual tearing-down part (which had to be done quickly and in secret over the Christmas holidays, since they’d lost their lease and their ex-landlord had barred them from the property).

This is the story I really want to see about the women of the Elizabethan theater, but since it doesn’t involve forest witches or anyone acting in male disguise, I fear I’m out of luck.

Speaking of business partners falling out, I think the story of Nikola Tesla would make a good “warts and all” movie. Tesla himself was kind of an odd duck (besides being a genius), and he was screwed royally by virtually all his sponsors, up to and including Thomas Edison, one of my boyhood heroes.

She was paid a LOT of $$-

Historian Eric Lott claimed Heth earned the impresario $1,500 a week, a princely sum in that era (equivalent to $47,000 in 2025).[9]

Families yes, and before the war Lindberg admired the gains in aviation Germany made, but he never stated any such sympathies. he also shared the intelligence he got from visiting and flying german planes with US-

There is disagreement on how accurate Lindbergh’s reports were, but Cole asserts that the consensus among British and American officials was that they were slightly exaggerated but badly needed.[195] Arthur Krock, the chief of The New York Times 's Washington Bureau, wrote in 1939, “When the new flying fleet of the United States begins to take air, among those who will have been responsible for its size, its modernness, and its efficiency is Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh. Informed officials here, in touch with what Colonel Lindbergh has been doing for his country abroad, are authority for this statement, and for the further observation that criticism of any of his activities – in Germany or elsewhere – is as ignorant as it is unfair.”[196] General Henry H. Arnold, the only U.S. Air Force general to hold five-star rank, wrote in his autobiography, “Nobody gave us much useful information about Hitler’s air force until Lindbergh came home in 1939.”[197] Lindbergh also undertook a survey of aviation in the Soviet Union in 1938.[198]

Lindy wholeheartedly supported the US once the war started. Yes, he was in the “America First” movement, but so were most Americans.

Good points.

Due to the fact that the President needed to be seen as following the same food as everyone esle got due to rationing-

The stringent measures were mostly due to the need for rationing during WWII. During this period, there was an emphasis on stretching food, which affected households across the nation, including the White House.

Is pretty much “warts and all”.

Tom Hanks also.

But here’s my opinion- say you have a Great Person, known for many important acts, who gave selflessly to the public. However- they slept around or did something else the Judeo-Christian majority considers a sin - but it legal. I dont care. I dont care that FDR slept around, for example. (Since Bill Murray was in that film it was pretty good anyway)

Snopes disagrees-

Some versions of this claim state Helen Palmer had cancer, but Snopes could not confirm this piece of her medical history. Nor, given that we could not find any statements from those directly involved, were we able to confirm whether Theodor Geisel started a romantic relationship with Dimond during Palmer’s illness, or whether the alleged affair directly contributed to Palmer’s death.

Good choice- Cromwell was an evil, violent, bigoted man.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10621206/

It covers his maybe or likely not gay relationship with Tolson. But clearly there was a “Bromance” there. Also Hoover was not a crossdresser. He was not a Good man, however.

griffin1977 Guest

6h

There is the 2011 Leonardo De Caprio telling of the story. Its definitely not entirely positive whether or not it’s really “warts and all” I don’t recall.

It was less “warts and all” than The Aviator. In general, having your plain-faced protagonist portrayed by a matinee idol tends to confer glamor on him. Imagine a movie about Jefferson Davis, starring Timothee Chalamet.

Would a straight biopic of Hitler even be possible? You’d want to be clear about the atrocities and the destruction, but also show why mainstream Germans ever found him appealing.

She was a slave and was paid squat. Her owner, Barnum, made a fortune.

If that were all he were, he’d be a bad choice. It’s warts and all that’s interesting,not warts alone. People who at one moment earn our admiration and respect, the next our just contempt.

E.g. you can’t do a warts and all treatment of Hitler, he is only wart.

There was such a biopic starring Richard Basehart as Adolf himself. I saw it many, many years ago, and I don’t think it’s ever been shown since. Two scenes I do remember are his escape after being injured in the Beer Hall Putsch, and him trying to woo a much younger woman in the Bavarian Alps.

That’s not what that quote says. Barnum was the impresario in question.

Exactly.

This might sound silly, but I didn’t even consider documentaries when going through this thread. I was just thinking of regular, dramatic movies.

A movie about the greatness of Thomas Edison would be good, too. He was wildly successful, but could certainly be conniving.

Yes, and he initially favored appeasement. I think it makes for a very interesting twist on his heroic life story.

Snopes says it’s unproven whether Seuss was cheating on his wife when she committed suicide. That doesn’t mean he treated her well.

From her own suicide note:

He remarried less than a year after he death, and just 6 weeks after the new wife had divorced her husband.

That’s some interesting grist for a movie.

Personally, I think it’s fascinating, given his physical limitations. The dynamic between him and Eleanor (who was very close to several homosexual women) is a very intriguing story.

J Edgar Hoover and Clyde Tolson were a couple who spent all their time together, to the exclusion of everybody else. I think you could produce a quality film that portrays more than a “bromance”

A pretty good recent example of a warts and all documentary is the Alex Gibney documentary on James Brown. IMHO it offers a very even-handed portrayal of a truly tremendous talent who was also a lousy businessman and kind of a shit of a human being to most everyone around him (with just a couple of partial exceptions).

A handful of really dedicated and committed political types trying to run a major political party.

Similarly, a bio-pic of Charles Manson would have to show why he was a charisma-magnet to a certain type of person, while being, on the whole, the living embodiment of hate.

Not sure how that could ever be done without distortion. If you go for the charisma, you’re short-changing the ‘demonic hate-monger’ aspect.

You may be right, but you certainly make a great case for this being a fascinating story. And the recent success of Hamnet—admittedly, more a critical success than a pop phenomenon—does suggest that someone, somewhere, might want to give this a try.

Yes, this would be a major issue for any prospective movie about Donald and Mel.

Any such movie runs into the problem that the main characters have few human reactions or impulses. The average narcissistic-personality-disorder sufferer is kind of opaque. How do you make a story that shows a human being undergoing emotional events, when your subject is so atypical?

(I haven’t seen the 2024 The Apprentice, and wonder how it treated the subject of Don’s psychology. I’ll have to look for that.)

“Impresario” means the guy who runs the show, not the performer. Barnum made $1500 a week from showing Heth - but as she was a slave, she didn’t get the money.

You’re right, I mixed up those improvements to the P-38s’ range with the B-25s used in the Doolittle raid, which stretched their range to the limit.

IIRC (from “The Aviators” by Winston Groom) he flew more like 50 combat missions. And he was deeply affected by his downing of the Japanese plane.

I’d like to see a retelling of the Cuban Missile Crisis which shows Kennedy working feverishly towards a solution, and also sneaking out to screw women and shoot up amphetamines.

You’d certainly have to include his infamous line to his brother, Robert (paraphrased)