# What’s the best spelling rule for “ie” vs “ei”? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 21, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080 "2006-12-21T16:24:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jebert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ec9cab/32.png) [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/1 "2006-12-21T16:24:43Z")
In high school we were taught a spelling rule for when “I” comes before “e” and vice versa. This rule had many fewer exceptions than the old, “’I’ before ‘e” except after ‘c’ or when sounded as ‘a’ as in ‘neighbor’ and ‘weigh,’” but I’ll be damned if I can remember it. Anyone? Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/2 "2006-12-21T16:32:14Z")
The best single rule that I can think of is to look the word up in a dictionary. Any other rule would have to be weird (or is it wierd – I can’t remember). ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/3 "2006-12-21T16:36:16Z")
There is no easily stated rule that avoids the many exceptions which must be created to govern the actual spellings using ei. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/4 "2006-12-21T16:48:32Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] There is no easily stated rule that avoids the \*\*many exceptions \*\* which must be created to govern the actual spellings using ei. [/QUOTE] The old “I before E” saw mentioned in the OP seems to me to get a lot of mileage … more than enough to serve as a useful mnemonic. Are there even 10 _commonly-used_ exceptions? “Weird” is one. Just how many exceptions are there. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/5 "2006-12-21T16:57:42Z")
[QUOTE=jebert] In high school we were taught a spelling rule for when “I” comes before “e” and vice versa. This rule had many fewer exceptions than the old, “’I’ before ‘e” except after ‘c’ or when sounded as ‘a’ as in ‘neighbor’ and ‘weigh,’” but I’ll be damned if I can remember it. [/QUOTE] I’m a little confused here. How do you get “ **many fewer** [bolding mine] exceptions than the old, _i_ before _e_ except after _c_ or when sounded as _a_ as in _neighbor_ and _weigh_,” seeing as that’s only two exceptions, and rather necessary ones at that? Many fewer than two? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![essell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/34f0e0/32.png) [@essell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/essell)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/6 "2006-12-21T17:00:33Z")
I certainly rely on the “I before E except after C”, but always fall down with deity… (even though I typed it eight times in a post last night I had to run off and check it now) Wish there was a proper rule but I’ve long since given up searching. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/7 "2006-12-21T17:04:55Z")
Budweiser. That’s all I got. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/8 "2006-12-21T17:08:24Z")
[QUOTE=Duke of Rat] Budweiser. That’s all I got. [/QUOTE] Well, if it’s from German, and you know how it’s pronounced, it’s easy, because German pronounces “ei” and “ie” quite differently. However, if I had a cent for every time I’ve heard “Riesling” pronounced the wrong way … ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/9 "2006-12-21T17:10:20Z")
“…except seize and seizure, and also in leisure…” Okay, I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/10 "2006-12-21T17:14:16Z")
Neither leisured foreign counterfeiter could attain either weird height without forfeitting protein. My neighbor’s eight beige reindeer weigh too much to be sent by freight. Between those two sentences, you’ve got almost every exception to the “i before e except after c” rule. Seizure and either are the only common ones I can think of that are left out. ---
**Author:** ![FormerMarineGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/65b543/32.png) [@FormerMarineGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FormerMarineGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/11 "2006-12-21T17:16:07Z")
I was looking this up the other day when going over some lessons with my son. From [HERE](http://alt-usage-english.org/I_before_E.html): > [@](#): > > beige, cleidoic, codeine, conscience, deify, deity, deign, dreidel, eider, eight, either, feign, feint, feisty, foreign, forfeit, freight, gleization, gneiss, greige, greisen, heifer, heigh-ho, height, heinous, heir, heist, leitmotiv, neigh, neighbor, neither, peignoir, prescient, rein, science, seiche, seidel, seine, seismic, seize, sheik, society, sovereign, surfeit, teiid, veil, vein, weight, weir, weird > [@](#): > > This list could obviously be extended by adding more derivatives of Latin “scire”, and by adding inflected forms of some of the basic words listed. The list has “conscience”, “prescient”, and “science”, but there are also, for example, “omniscient” and “nescient”. To “eight” could be added “eighty”, “eighteen”, and “eighth”. And the list could be greatly extended by adding the plurals of all words ending in “cy”. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/12 "2006-12-21T17:17:57Z")
Also note that the “I before E” rule applies to **native English** words, taken from Old English or Norman French. There are a large number of Latinate and Greek coinages, using the -ity, -ist/-ism, and related suffixes on words whose root ends in “e-”, that violate the rule. There are a huge number of words borrowed from German. “My weird atheist niece drank a stein of beer and ate a wiener.” ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/13 "2006-12-21T17:23:47Z")
[QUOTE=Shoshana] “…except **seize** and **seizure** , and also in **leisure** …” [/QUOTE] Okay, with **weird** , that makes four. Cases such as “deity” and “piety”, to me, are different because the “i” and “e” are split across two syllables. Another that comes to mind is **counterfeit** (making 5). Perhaps also **surfeit** , but that rides the line between common and stilted. Screw it … **surfeit** is on the exceptions list. Can we make it to 10? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/14 "2006-12-21T17:45:24Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] Okay, with **weird** , that makes four. Cases such as “deity” and “piety”, to me, are different because the “i” and “e” are split across two syllables. Another that comes to mind is **counterfeit** (making 5). Perhaps also **surfeit** , but that rides the line between common and stilted. Screw it … **surfeit** is on the exceptions list. Can we make it to 10? [/QUOTE] See **ultrafilter** ’s list. My mom taught me a mnemonic that included “weird financier” but it didn’t stick. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/15 "2006-12-21T17:48:34Z")
The best way to learn to spell is simply to read lots. The more you read, the more any incorrect spellings just leap off the page at you like some kind of wierd, fiesty, foriegn financeirs. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/16 "2006-12-21T17:55:01Z")
[QUOTE=ultrafilter] Neither leisured foreign counterfeiter could attain either weird height without **forfeitting** protein. [/QUOTE] The i and the e are in the right place, but there’s only one t in “[forfeiting](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/forfeiting)”. (NB this post is 101% likely to contain at least one typo.) ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/17 "2006-12-21T17:58:00Z")
Iether way, it gives me a siezure. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/18 "2006-12-21T18:23:46Z")
[QUOTE=Colophon] (NB this post is 101% likely to contain at least one typo.) [/QUOTE] Yes – you had 101% when you should have written 100% 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jebert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ec9cab/32.png) [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/19 "2006-12-21T18:37:39Z")
Yeah, I know I can look it up in a dictionary or use spell check, but sometimes those things aren’t available. (Unless I’m missing something, I don’t see a spell checker in this SDMB reply window I’m using.) The rule I’m trying to remember was in my English III textbook, which was maybe 5" x 7" in size and had a picture of a printer’s typecase on the cover. In fact our school used the complete series of these books for the four years of English. The covers were identical except for the color of the square that the title was printed in. Anyone remember those books? ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080/20 "2006-12-21T19:13:12Z")
“I before E, except after C, or when sounded like A, as in neighbor and sleigh, or in certain other weird words.” “I before E, except after C” --the classic rule “I before E, except after C, or when sounded like A, as in neighbor and sleigh.” --my dad’s revised version “I before E, except after C, or when sounded like A, as in neighbor and sleigh, or in certain other weird words.” --my own formulation 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-best-spelling-rule-for-ie-vs-ei/385080.md?page=2)