# What’s the difference between being devoutly religious and delusional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833 "2018-06-10T18:24:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/81 "2018-06-13T16:39:48Z")
I’m an atheist, but it strikes me as being incredibly obvious and clear that devout belief and delusion are different things. A delusion in the sense generally being used here, and in the sense of “Even Almighty” or “Bruce Almighty” where you think you’d actually met and talked to God and He looks like Morgan Freeman, is essentially equivalent to the definition of a hallucination. Actually hearing the voice of God, or seeing signs from God, are auditory and visual hallucinations. A person who frequently has such things and believes them to be true is delusional, and is psychotic. A person who is devoutly religious is, by definition, a person who is profoundly committed to their religion. It is not necessary to have delusions of any sort to be religious (just as it is not necessary to be religious to be delusional.) A person who believes in (to use this as an example) the divinity of Christ, the reality of God, and the Trinity can be quite a devout Christian, but it is not necessary that they have auditory or visual hallucinations of God speaking or appearing to them. Indeed, I know many devout believers who, if told by someone else they’d actually heard God’s voice, would assume not that the person had really heard from God, but that the person was psychologically troubled - even though they may themselves believe in God. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/82 "2018-06-13T16:43:34Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > (Schools are still required to teach the truth alongside the religion, aren’t they? Everyone goes to school, right?) [Not Florida voucher schools.](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/education/school-zone/os-voucher-school-curriculum-20180503-story.html) > [@](#): > > Some private schools in Florida that rely on public funding teach students that dinosaurs and humans lived together, that God’s intervention prevented Catholics from dominating North America and that slaves who “knew Christ” were better off than free men who did not. > … > The books denounce evolution as untrue, for example, and one shows a cartoon of men and dinosaurs together, telling students the Biblical Noah likely brought baby dinosaurs onto his ark. The science books, they added, seem to discourage students from doing experiments or even asking questions. > … > One book, in its brief section on the civil rights movement, said that “most black and white southerners had long lived together in harmony” and that “power-hungry individuals stirred up the people.” > > The books are rife with religious and political opinions on topics such as abortion, gay rights and the Endangered Species Act, which one labels a “radical social agenda.” Have pity on those poor children. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/83 "2018-06-13T16:44:26Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Essentially right, I think. > > I don’t believe religion is bullshit; I believe that where science and religion clash, religion must give way, \*\*inside of \*\* the religion. That all must modify their own religion to suit science. Which is fine until the fundamental tenets of a religion are disproved by science. As is the case for Fundamentalist Christianity and Islam. The Catholics are an example of a religion which has modified itself to accept scientific findings, but they seem to be on thin ice as they accept that there was no actual Garden of Eden. For lots of people when God and truth conflict, God wins. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/84 "2018-06-13T20:49:35Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Maybe we can all agree that if a religion requires human sacrifice it probably has crossed the line. Even if you’re only sacrificing unbelievers. That being said. Isn’t the entire gist of Christianity based on a human sacrifice? That the human Jesus literally died for humanities sins. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/85 "2018-06-13T21:28:22Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Isn’t the entire gist of Christianity based on a human sacrifice? That the human Jesus literally died for humanities sins. Yeah, but that was the good kind of human sacrifice. It wasn’t some goddam heathen human sacrifice! Plus, he rose again after 3 days, so no harm no foul. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/86 "2018-06-13T21:53:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, but that was the good kind of human sacrifice. Meaning, the kind where a person sacrifices himself to save others? Yeah, I think most people would call that “the good kind of human sacrifice.” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/87 "2018-06-13T22:00:01Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Meaning, the kind where a person sacrifices himself to save others? Yeah, I think most people would call that “the good kind of human sacrifice.” Okay, I’ve been trying to ignore this diversion because it’s off-topic, but- The issue with the Jesus sacrifice isn’t that Jesus did it. It’s that God _accepted_ it. God alters his judgement about Fred because he got to watch Jesus suffer and die. Even in my most generous imaginings I’m unable to come up with an explanation for that that doesn’t look very, very bad for God. The issue with religions that tell their followers that their god wants them to murder people isn’t really the followers - they’re just being obedient. It’s the bloodthirsty _god_. (Making the assumption that the god and his bloodthirstiness weren’t invented by the followers, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/88 "2018-06-13T22:08:08Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Meaning, the kind where a person sacrifices himself to save others? Yeah, I think most people would call that “the good kind of human sacrifice.” Maybe most Christians would call it that. Most people? I doubt it. The pertinent aspect isn’t that Jesus did it, but that God demanded it. Let’s not forget John 3:16. Unclear to us non-Christians why an omnipotent being would have to sacrifice anything to get anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/89 "2018-06-14T03:49:36Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Meaning, the kind where a person sacrifices himself to save others? Yeah, I think most people would call that “the good kind of human sacrifice.” > [@begbert2](#): > > Okay, I’ve been trying to ignore this diversion because it’s off-topic, but- > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe most Christians would call it that. Most people? I doubt it. I don’t think the statement I made above is all that far off-topic, nor do I think that most people would have a problem with calling sacrificing one’s own life to save others “the good kind of human sacrifice.” Real life and fiction are both full of examples of people sacrificing their lives to save others (e.g. a fireman who rushes into a burning building to save a child, or a soldier who dies defending his comrades). And even if they do these things from religious motives, or even if they think God is telling them to do them, most people consider their actions good, even heroic. And we don’t worry too much about whether those religious motivations are delusional—not nearly as much as we do if someone sacrifices _other people’s_ lives from religious motives or because they think God is telling them to. As for the rest of what you guys were saying, about God demanding sacrifice, I think you’re right both about it being a problem with _some_ Christian theories of the atonement, and about it being not really on-topic to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/90 "2018-06-14T04:34:14Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Isn’t the entire gist of Christianity based on a human sacrifice? That the human Jesus literally died for humanities sins. That’s one version of it. Some reject that version entirely, and claim that “Do as Jesus did, and as he said” is all there is to it. Some to the point of rejecting large parts of the Bible as fabrications. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/91 "2018-06-14T04:39:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Which is fine until the fundamental tenets of a religion are disproved by science. As is the case for Fundamentalist Christianity and Islam. > The Catholics are an example of a religion which has modified itself to accept scientific findings, but they seem to be on thin ice as they accept that there was no actual Garden of Eden. > For lots of people when God and truth conflict, God wins. And I respond that such people are neither devout nor moral, and (with the conditions of modern knowledge and information) are - every single one, besides a few mentally incompetent - deliberately lying, and willfully dishonest people. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/92 "2018-06-14T08:04:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > A delusion in the sense generally being used here, and in the sense of “Even Almighty” or “Bruce Almighty” where you think you’d actually met and talked to God and He looks like Morgan Freeman, is essentially equivalent to the definition of a hallucination. Actually hearing the voice of God, or seeing signs from God, are auditory and visual hallucinations. A person who frequently has such things and believes them to be true is delusional, and is psychotic. You make some good points, but just so we’re clear: Hallucinations are not exclusive to psychotic people. Such phenomena have been observed in psychologically healthy (“normal”) individuals as well. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/93 "2018-06-14T13:20:24Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > You make some good points, but just so we’re clear: > > Hallucinations are not exclusive to psychotic people. > > Such phenomena have been observed in psychologically healthy (“normal”) individuals as well. Indeed. One significant point (though I doubt this is the right place to make it) is that expressly “religious” hallucinations are not exclusive to the devout, either. In point of fact, much genuine religious feeling derives from the so-called “mystic experience”, which can (and has) been experienced by religious and non-religious people alike - the exact contents of this experience tends to be interpreted through the lens of whatever culture the person experiencing it is already familiar with. > **[Scholarly approaches to mysticism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholarly_approaches_to_mysticism)** > > Antiquity > Medieval > Early modern > Modern For example, those with a Judeo-Christian background will tend to interpret it as direct communion with their God; those who are not of that persuasion, as some sort of pantheistic epiphany. I am firmly of the opinion that it has a purely physical explanation - that it represents some quirk of the human brain. How to characterize it I am less sure. Calling it a “delusion” or “hallucination” seems inadequate, even if in some ways accurate – the important point is whether it improves one’s outlook on life, or causes one to behave in ways that are destructive. Most people who have had this sort of experience view it as entirely positive, for what that is worth. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/94 "2018-06-15T08:49:43Z")
Well put, **Malthus**. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/95 "2018-06-15T09:55:31Z")
That’s one of the main reasons I think it’s necessary to acknowledge that God does “exist” - as a part of psychology. God exists in the same way that emotions and thoughts exist - another product/result of being human. But therefore meriting a chapter in every psychology textbook, **instead of** being anthropomorphized. God is all in your head, AND that’s a good thing - as long as you make sure he stays there! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/96 "2018-06-15T13:53:55Z")
Perhaps part of the issue exposed by the OP’s question is that the term “delusional” covers too much territory, and all of it negative. Same with “hallucination” - the term, in common use at least, implies someone suffering from a more or less severe mental illness. Yet more or less normal people experience things that are “delusions” or “hallucinations” without being mentally ill – some are very bad (like Sleep paralysis), others are arguably very good (like mystic experiences). We don’t have much room in our cultural lexicon for the positive aspects of delusions and hallucinations, leaving that territory entirely to either ‘alternative’ new-age-y types, or the drug culture. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/97 "2018-06-15T17:47:20Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > That’s one of the main reasons I think it’s necessary to acknowledge that God does “exist” - as a part of psychology. God exists in the same way that emotions and thoughts exist - another product/result of being human. But therefore meriting a chapter in every psychology textbook, **instead of** being anthropomorphized. > > God is all in your head, AND that’s a good thing - as long as you make sure he stays there! 🙂 I disagree. I don’t believe the are emotions or sensations or mechanisms or _whatever_ in the human head/brain/mind that can be coherently or accurately called God. There are various disparate disconnected and unrelated aspects of human psychology that play into various experiences that people associate with God/spiritualism, but calling these psychological aspects “God” would be like taking the left femur, the right clavicle, and the right eyeball and collectively calling them “Enrique” purely because you want humans to have something called “Enrique” inside of them. Unless of course when you say that God exists in the same way that thoughts exists you meant that God exists in the same way that things people _think about_ exist - like Frodo Baggins. In which case I’d be happy to concede that, yes, God exists exactly as much as Frodo Baggins. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/98 "2018-06-15T19:34:40Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > That’s one of the main reasons I think it’s necessary to acknowledge that God does “exist” - as a part of psychology. God exists in the same way that emotions and thoughts exist - another product/result of being human. But therefore meriting a chapter in every psychology textbook, **instead of** being anthropomorphized. > > God is all in your head, AND that’s a good thing - as long as you make sure he stays there! 🙂 This is a very good point you make. When a number of people collectively believe something exists, like Sasquatch or aliens or God, that belief exists even if the actual thing does not. People can do some pretty bizarre things based on beliefs they have in things that do not exist. Take weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, for example. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/99 "2018-06-15T19:36:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I disagree. I don’t believe the are emotions or sensations or mechanisms or _whatever_ in the human head/brain/mind that can be coherently or accurately called God. There are various disparate disconnected and unrelated aspects of human psychology that play into various experiences that people associate with God/spiritualism, but calling these psychological aspects “God” would be like taking the left femur, the right clavicle, and the right eyeball and collectively calling them “Enrique” purely because you want humans to have something called “Enrique” inside of them. > > Unless of course when you say that God exists in the same way that thoughts exists you meant that God exists in the same way that things people _think about_ exist - like Frodo Baggins. In which case I’d be happy to concede that, yes, God exists exactly as much as Frodo Baggins. People regularly have religious/mystical visions. People don’t regularly have Frodo Baggins visions. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833/100 "2018-06-15T20:26:47Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > People regularly have religious/mystical visions. People don’t regularly have Frodo Baggins visions. Interesting comment - one with immediately prompts the question: why? There are multiple possible answers. I’m curious what your answer is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-s-the-difference-between-being-devoutly-religious-and-delusional/815833.md?page=6)