He died over a few decades? I thought it only took a few hours.
JerseyDiamond, the cite you recommended for Ezra–Nehemiah texts is very poor, but something I find typical of apologists works who realize they have to say something, so they just throw something out there. It’s amazing how this writer of this cite, only picks and chooses the verses that deal with just a small portion of the discrepancies. E.g., this writer claims of the 39 verses only 17 discrepancies can be found. In the texts I gave, there is 138 verses to compare, 70 in Ezra, and 68 in Nehemiah, and of that, over 50 discrepancies in names or numbers are presented. Not only that, when each text adds up the totals, they can’t even get that right. Both books fail miserably, by over 10,000 in each case. Why did this author only want to concentrate on just the 39 verses? Reading the selected verses that he wanted you to see, I noticed he conveniently doesn’t list any of the verses that had the name discrepancies altogether. I don’t mind giving latitude to some slight name variations, but when completely different names gets added to the same set of numbers when following the parallel, then it tells me this text cannot be relied on for its accuracy. E.g., in Ezra 2:18- “The children of Jorah, an hundred and twelve, and then following the parallel in Neh’ 7:24–“The children of *Hariph,[/] an hundred and twelve.“ I think he left these out on purpose so that his following explanation might sound more plausible. We’ll see. But anyway, here is his explanation he provides:
**It is obvious from the above table, that there were many statistical differences between Ezra and Nehemiah. Though most of them are identical, some do not match. Why? The answer is simple.
Ezra was written no later than 450 B.C. Nehemiah should be dated during the reign of Artexerxes 1 (464-423 B.C.). According to the book, “Talk Thru the Bible,” Ezra was written about 538-516 B.C. where Nehemiah was written around 444-425 B.C… Therefore, the dates of writing are different and the statistical differences can easily be accounted for by considering that during the difference of years, people died, families grew, etc. **
Does he honestly think that no one is going to read and study the text for themselves? Did you read it, or immediately jump to a search engine, and found something that commented on it, and figured that‘ll do? The errors cannot be accounted for simply due to the dates being different for Ezra and Nehemiah being written. This is irrelevant. Think about this. If it is telling the same story for the same time period, they should be the same. If one goes to both Nehemiah and Ezra, the story starts the same. They are not talking about two different time periods. They both clearly state word for word verbatim the children of the province that went up out of captivity, whom Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city. Read Ezra 1:1 and compare it to Nehemiah 7:6. Now also look how they end. His explanation is even weaker if he truly wants to go with this one hundred year or so period in which the books were written, allowing for a different time period, and then claim the difference in years, people died, families grew. etc will account for this. This is ridiculous. Ironically, what does this poor argument in, is the fact that many of the names and numbers do match! Imagine if you will, a U.S. census in which a hundred years passes, and half of the populations of cities stayed exactly the same! What are the odds?! About the only other explanation one could come up with for about half the numbers staying the same over a hundred year period, would be that different people did die, and there was newborns, but it was just a big coincidence that half of these cities just happened to come up with the same populations. Nobody is that credulous. I’d like to see a mathematician run that through his calculator and give us the odds on that happening. This author doesn’t address the numbers that stayed the same, but yet the names changed. How can the same set of numbers appear, but yet the names get exchanged while still claiming inerrancy?
Finally, in a last attempt at it, he throws out the ole “copyist error” routine, and admits there is a percentage of copyist errors in numbers throughout the Hebrew Scripture, but yet he states it is a small percentage. Just comparing these two pericopes, I think we have a different opinion on what is considered small. And again, this writer never bothers to mention the name differences. And regardless, if it is a copyist error or not, that is my point. The texts cannot be relied on for accurate information, nothing divine about it. And how does he even know it was a copyist error, when assuming there ever were any originals, none are to be found?
Since you concentrated on prophecies, I’ll start with them in the order you presented them. If you have one in particular you want to go in more depth on, do so.
1)Gen. 2:17 Death to be normal lot of mankind …
fulfillment, Gen 3:19;5:5
Starting with 2:16 with the KJV it says: “But the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Did Adam or Eve die the day they ate of it? No. According to the 5:5 which you gave he managed to live to a ripe old age of 930 years. The serpent argues in 3:4-5 that they won’t die on that day, and that their eyes will truly be opened and they will know good from evil. A few verses down confirms that the serpent was right. Most apologists want to say that it was a spiritual death that they were talking about all along, although there is no mention of this. As much as fundamentalists cry foul of liberals who don’t always go with the literal interpretation, as one often sees, they are not beyond doing quite a bit of it themselves, when they are in a jam. I know it’s convenient when a literal reading doesn’t quite do it, one resorts to allegory, and you know what? If ones gives this much latitude, anything is possible of any work.
BTW, JerseyDiamond, it isn’t a prophecy to predict that death is a normal occurrence, and one doesn’t need the Garden of Eden story to determine that. Did you?
**2)Gen. 15:13 Israel to be slaves in Egypt for 400 years
fulfillment, Ex. 12:40-41 **
With the verses you provided, it stated 400 years in 15:13. In Exodus 12:40-41 it says 430 years. Which is it? Was Moses rounding off? What if it was off by say 50 years, or 100? At what point, would you say this clearly is in error? And another point of contention–please read the 16th verse of the 15th chapter. It states in the “fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.” Allowing 30 years for a generation we come up with 120 years. And just what is Moses relying on for his information to determine all of this? What historic sources provide this information. Even staying in the Bible as the main source, it doesn’t get it right.
3)Ex. 3:8; 6:6 Israel to be delivered from Egyptian bondage
fulfillment, Ex. 12:41
This is just basically a reiteration of (2) which I commented on above.
4)Num. 14:23, 32-35 Israel to wander in the wilderness for 40 yrs
fulfillment, Num 26:63-65; 32:13
We’ve got, I suppose the same writer saying they will wander in the wilderness for 40 years, and a few chapters later, he confirms himself by reiterating what he just said. Is there any archaeological or historical evidence for this, or do we just take the word of anyone that writes anything in the Bible? Do you give this much latitude for other religious works? JerseyDiamond, working through the rest of these, I would appreciate you giving me a real good one that we could go on in detail. With any of these, how hard would it have been for the later writers to have access to some of the earlier works, and then write in what their heart desires to fulfill what they want it to fulfill? Can you imagine any of this going on? Or are they, being men of God, just not capable of such a thing? Where is the checks and balances?
**You also have the things yet to come. I will list a few.
- The Church is raptured to the Father’s house before Christ comes to set up His kingdom ( John 14:1-3; 1 Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thess 4:13-18
- Gog and Magog will be destoyed on the mountains of Israel (Ezekial 38-39)
- Antichrist sets up a one world government (Rev. 6:2; 13:1-8)
- Antichrist establishes a seven yr covenant of peace with Israel (Isa. 28:15; Dan 9:24-27)
- A global apostate church established (Rev 17:1-15)**
None of these do anyone good when they haven‘t been fulfilled, particularly when we’ve been waiting two thousand years for something to happen, and still we get nothing. However, if you have something in the present or near future, that would be great. Do you have one real good prophecy that is fixing to occur in the near future? Or what about something along the lines of Mark 16:16-18? That would be both a prophecy and a miracle tht would suit me just fine. Maybe though, you think miracles like this went out with the apostles or have some other reason why this can‘t be demonstrated.
**Issaac Newton was a heck of a lot smarter than any one in the world that I know of, and he “believed that the Bible is literally true in every respect. Throughout his life, he continually tested Biblical truth against the physical truths of experimental and theoretical science. He never observed a contradiction. In fact, he viewed his own scientific work as a method by which to reinforce belief in Biblical truth.” **
Newton was a brilliant scientist, no doubt. Some years ago when 50 of the most prominent scientists was told to make out a list of who they thought was the greatest scientist of all, Einstein’s name came up quite a bit, as did Charles Darwin, and Neil Bohr, but Newton’s name was at the top or near top of everyone’s. In this day and age I seriously doubt Newton would be a bible believer. Of the just over 500 scientists at NASA, only 7% of them believed in a god. I’m not aware of any of them even remotely entertaining any of the creationist views portrayed in the Bible.
You should, if you are really interested, pick up the ‘Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties’ by Gleason L. Archer.
Turn to page 15. Gleason gives eight procedures on how to deal with biblical difficulties, and with some of these I don‘t have any problem with, so I’ll just concentrate on a few that I do. With a couple of his presuppositions of inerrancy he wants a reader to even preclude the possibility that some of the books or verses were less than divine in origin. He assumes that no material that was not of divine origin could have been allowed in canon. There are many problems with this. E.g., the differences of Catholic and Protestant canons, as well as the Catholic canon having more books added to it. If it was indeed divine, how did this happen?
In the foreword of that book, Gleason uses Kantzer to back his position of inerrancy. Kantzer gives off a list of names to help support his position including Augustine. I’m curious as to why Augustine is even on that list. In his Book of Confessions he tells that scripture shouldn’t always be taken literally, and goes on to show support for Ambrose who removed that obstacle. In another one of Augustine’s book, he tells how he didn’t think the creation account of Genesis 1 and the six days was to be taken literally either. So it’s ironic that the very name Gleason wants to use, wouldn’t support his position of today. I think you would learn a great deal more by reading from the higher critics.
JZ
Of course, :smack: what was I thinking?! :rolleyes:
We can go outside and I can show you proof of gravity by dropping a rock. Can you show me proof of evolution? No? Well then I guess it’s not “proven true to the extent anything is ever proven true in science,” is it? This, my dear, is why I will not debate science with you. I have read your posts and I do not want to partake in your mental gymnastics.
(On the contrary. You are wrong, but I suppose there is little point in arguing with you about that either. )
John Zahn, I am going to have to take some time (more time than I spend actually posting) and review Ezra- Nehemiah so I can give you a better explaination, although I do not think there will be an explanation that will satisfy you.
I don’t think it could be explained much better than the below cite.
HOW LONG WAS THE ISRAELITES’ EGYPTIAN BONDAGE?
I believe that “in the day” means certainty of death in Hebrew. That too I will have to look up, if I remember. If I don’t, you should look it up and let me know. Keep in mind, the words/translation from Hebrew to English aren’t always exact. This is why you need to go back to the hebrew wording and find out what it means. God did not say that death would be immediate if he ate the fruit, but certain.
I know you don’t want to hear it, but there are different kinds of death in the bible. How about, spiritual death and physical death. When a person refuses to accept this as true, like you, of course you are not going to believe it when someone tells you something may be talking about spiritual death. At this point, there is no reason to discuss it any further.
BTW, John Zahn, one does need prophesy to predict that death was to happen. If Adam and Eve didn’t eat from the tree of life, they would have lived forever.
As for a good prophecy, read Daniel. It can’t get much more detailed than Daniel. Read the cite below with Daniel. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1035780679-3244.html
I happen to think that we are pretty close to the Ezekial 38-39 war.
Who said that Mark 16:16-18 cannot be demonstrated? A pastor (who also happens to be a cousin of mine) at a church I once went to, spoke in fluent Chinese without even knowing how to say ‘hi’ in Chinese. I don’t know about you, but I think that gift is a miracle. It just so happened that a couple from China was attending the church he was in that day. They understood every word that flowed from his mouth.
Can I please have a cite on your 7 % of Nasa believing in a god? Just because you think that Isaac Newton would not be a Christian today, does not make it fact. As a matter of fact, he went his whole life without your opinion and did pretty well. His mind didn’t change then, and I don’t think it would change now. There are a lot of scientists today that believe. there is : Wernher von Braun, James Irwin, Walter Bradley, Henry Schaefer, and Arthur Schawlow to name a few.
Well, I am done for now. Probably talk to you soon, JD
MISTAKE…
BTW, John Zahn, one does need prophesy to predict that death was to happen. If Adam and Eve didn’t eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
sorry about that. It’s past my bedtime.
-Oh? Can you prove Jesus died on the cross? Can you prove Jesus even existed? (And quoting the bible is a circular argument- nonbiblical references please.)
How about the Ark? The Flood? Lots’ wife and the salt thing? The parting of the seas? Water into wine?
So, by going outside and dropping a rock, this proves that the same force which causes the rock to fall is also the force which keeps the planets in their orbits, and that this force is a universal attractation between matter?
Well, by that standard of proof, here is proof of human evolution.
JerseyDiamond, no problem, take your time. But I do hope to hear of what you think. Not what some cites think.
I made a few typo’s in my prior post, and also need to make some corrections.
I stated the scientists as NASA, when it should have been NAS (National Academy of Scientists). You asked for that cite: http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm
Genesis 2:16, should have been 2:17.
Of the Ezra Nehemiah texts, when I said over 50 discrepancies in names or numbers are presented. That should read in names and numbers.
Okay, a few more tidbits from you:
Who said that Mark 16:16-18 cannot be demonstrated? A pastor (who also happens to be a cousin of mine) at a church I once went to, spoke in fluent Chinese without even knowing how to say ‘hi’ in Chinese. I don’t know about you, but I think that gift is a miracle. It just so happened that a couple from China was attending the church he was in that day. They understood every word that flowed from his mouth.
Certainly not I. I was curious if you thought if these type of miracles went out with the apostles. Every believer has their own interpretation, which is why I asked. I wouldn’t mind a demonstration of that, or what is specified in those verses. Find me any person that is up for that, and I’ll be in church the next Sunday and for ever after, assuming they survive it. Let me mix the poisons, and get the snakes that I want to get, and have you or anyone else that is up for it sign a few legal waivers. Better yet, bring me an amputee. Now about the man who spoke fluent Chinese without knowing how, and it just so happened that a couple from China understood every word that flowed out of his mouth. Could they do that just one more time for James Randi? Assuming everything is on the up and up, he’ll be happy to write you a check for over one million dollars. If they don’t want the money, then they could donate it to their church or someone in need. People such as yourself, I have no doubt believe it happened just the way you said. I just think you’re honestly mistaken. I would loved to be proved wrong though. But it doesn’t do any good to tell us what supposedly happened in the past, or things that are going to happen far into the future. Why not now?
You give me another cite to help clear up the 400 years verses the 430 years. I read that cite of some 50 pages, and noticed they give many more scriptures that only befuddle the issue even more. There is no general consensus among the believers here at this cite as to what years is the correct amount. Some go with a literal 400 years, while others think they are rounding off. Even more seem to go with a case of 430 years. And yet there is another group, that think 215 years is correct. Isn’t it amazing that just a couple of scriptures you gave me for prophecy needs some 50 pages with this cite that attempts to explain this? How can you make this a good case of prophecy, when no one from the very cite you gave me can agree upon how many years it is supposed to be? They continually use words and phrases like: “it seems to suggest,” “apparent disagreements,” “alleged contradiction,” “making it appear,” and many more. If you read these words carefully, there isn’t any conclusion to any of it. I want to highlight this one in particular: But the exact length of the Israelites’ “sojourn” has been in the past, and remains today, a matter of some controversy. But at the end they proclaim:
Thus, when all of the biblical information is considered, it is apparent that there is no contradiction between Exodus 12:40-41 and Galatians 3:17. Nor is there any problem in regard to Genesis 15:13 and Acts 7:6. As the late Bobby Duncan said when he ended his study of these matters, “Isn’t it amazing how the Bible clarifies the Bible?” (n.d., p. 4). Amazing indeed!
This cite wants to make such a proclamation even after acknowledging it remains in controversy, and you want to make a prophecy out it. Despite what they say, there are plenty of problems with it as you can see from reading that very cite.
Just because you think that Isaac Newton would not be a Christian today, does not make it fact. As a matter of fact, he went his whole life without your opinion and did pretty well. His mind didn’t change then, and I don’t think it would change now.
Well, after reading the numbers from the leading scientists at NAS, I’d say it’s a damn good educated guess that he wouldn’t be; especially some creationist. It isn’t a fact that he wouldn’t change his mind either.
I believe that “in the day” means certainty of death in Hebrew. That too I will have to look up, if I remember. If I don’t, you should look it up and let me know. Keep in mind, the words/translation from Hebrew to English aren’t always exact. This is why you need to go back to the hebrew wording and find out what it means. God did not say that death would be immediate if he ate the fruit, but certain.
I’ve already done that. I believe you’re mistaken for the phrase “in the day” meaning certainty of death in Hebrew. Strong’s has the Hebrew word “day” as “Yowm” and it gives it more words than I care to type out, but there is nothing in there about death, at least with just that word. I have no ideal, how adding “in the” in front of it could mean that. The Hebrew word used, is the same that is used with“day” in the Genesis 1 creation account. The very way it is expressed there indicates it was a 24 hour period. Each verse expresses “the evening and the morning were the “first” day on through to the “sixth” day. But liberal Christians want to give the “day” expressed in Genesis 1 a meaning of an era. There are many problems with a literal reading and a liberal reading of each account. None make any sense.
BTW, John Zahn, one does need prophesy to predict that death was to happen. If Adam and Eve didn’t eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Many who are not familiar with this story, don’t need prophecy to know that death is inevitable.
As for a good prophecy, read Daniel. It can’t get much more detailed than Daniel. Read the cite below with Daniel.
I tried to get that cite to open several times, but it didn’t, so I don‘t know what you‘re referring to in particular. I might try back later and see if it will open.
JZ