# What shall we call the latest Bush scandal? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 14, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751 "2003-06-14T04:49:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/41 "2003-06-14T16:43:25Z")
I keep wishing I could find a way to make “between Iraq and a hard place” work. But I can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/42 "2003-06-14T16:47:05Z")
“Between Iraq and a hard place”? Isn’t that the name of the next Bond movie? Lord Ashtar, here’s Waxman’s site, with his letters to Rice on the issue. From what I’ve seen, they’re well documented with references to reputable sources: [http://www.house.gov/reform/min/inves\_admin/admin\_nuclear\_evidence.htm](http://www.house.gov/reform/min/inves_admin/admin_nuclear_evidence.htm) This is, of course, aside from all the other stuff Bush did, like the insider trading. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/43 "2003-06-14T18:15:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Scyll, so let me get this straight: > > Lying to start a war that continues to get American soldiers and Iraqi civilians killed = petty bullshit > > Lying about a blowjob = earthshaking Constitutional crisis > > Is that about right? \*\* Not even close. The allegations against Bush are bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/44 "2003-06-14T18:33:29Z")
To elaborate, it’s bullshit. Total bullshit. This is basically just another where are the WMDs thread. Like Harkens it is bullshit, like Harvard it is bullshit, like the Afghani quagmire being another Vietnam it is bullshit, like the 100,000 U.S. Soldiers were going to die in Iraq was bullshit, like stealing Florida was bullshit, like the “we don’t have enough soldiers in Iraq” was bullshit, like destabilizing the region was bullshit, like millions of deaths in Baghdad was bullshit, like the robbing of all the antiquities was bullshit. It’s just another round of bullshit from the Enemies of Bush trying to create a scandal where none exists. It is particularly stupid Bullshit because Clinton was sending Tomahawk missiles out because of the nonexistant WMDs, and Iraq’s weapons programs have been an issue in global politics for some time. What we have here is a window between the end of the war and the time The WMDs are found for the Enemies of Bush to harp on them just like they harped on everything else. Like Chicken Little and the Boy that Cried Wolf, it gets less credible with each iteration, and, the ironic thing is that like Chicken Little, if the sky ever does fall, nobody’s going to believe anymore, effectively making Bush scandal proof. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/45 "2003-06-14T18:48:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Not even close. The allegations against Bush are bullshit. \*\* Ah, the unshakeable confidence combined with blind adherence to party dogma that defines the true ideologue. You know, don’t you, that the White House is looking for someone to replace Ari Fleischer? Need a job? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/46 "2003-06-14T19:21:22Z")
I’ll keep that in mind. Sadly for you the Chicken Little position is already filled. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/47 "2003-06-14T19:39:30Z")
Perhaps I oughtn’t to be disappointed in you, **Scylla** , but I am. I thought you had some integrity. Perhaps I was misled by your stated admiration for Goldwater, which, as you know, I share. It all rather sounds like the defenders of Nixon. Even when it became abundantly clear, they never gave up. Never. The premise for the invasion of Iraq was false. The most generous case that can be made, at least with a straight face, is that Fearless Misleader did not know. Even Consiglieri Rice has admitted this laughable bit of crapola, the Great Niger Uranium Sale, was a forgery. Evidently, the boys over in CIA are being encouraged to fall on thier swords. We have sent our soldiers to fight for a lie. I don’t know which is worse, to ask them to die for an ignoble cause, or to ask them to kill for it. If Colin Powell had even a shred of the integrity he is credited with, he would resign. How he manages to shave without a mirror is a neat trick. As I mentioned, I find the silence of Mr. McCain equally disheartening. You loudly declaim that all of this is bullshit, merely the connivance and treachery of lesser men trying to bring down a noble leader. And yet, in all this bluster, you offer not so much as a scrap of argument. Are we to take it on faith, a faith that surpasseth all understanding? Lets just focus on one example: the Niger Uranium scandal. You will recall, I brought this up a long time ago, to the withering scorn of the Usual Suspects. I put it to you, sir, that time has shown me right, and you wrong. I defy you to present a reasonable argument to believe otherwise. With, to quote the Master, “the calm confidence of a Methodist with four aces.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/48 "2003-06-14T19:45:12Z")
> [@](#): > > So what are we going to call what may be the biggest Presidential scandal in American history? I thought we already called it Watergate? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/49 "2003-06-14T19:46:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > \*_Should the assertion of the OP prove to be true (that the Bush administration knowingly misled the people to justify a politically expedient_ war), I struggle to imagine a _bigger_ scandal. Please enlighten me. > > \*and possibly illegal – the legality of this war was predicated on the threat to the US right? \*\* I fail to see how this was a “politically expediant war”. However: Historically, Presidential scandals have involved actions taken for either political gain, financial gain, or sexual mis-adventure. Few people are going to get all that excited about sleight-of-hand that was done in order to remove a terrorist supporting, mass murdering demagogue from power. Even if the major players in this are somehow proven to be guilty (a big if) this arcane bit of information about Nigerian paperwork is not going to catch the attention of the populace. In the last opinion poll I saw Bush had a 70% approval rating. Bush opponents will have to come up with something more attention getting than this or else he will easily win the next election. There are only 17 months left. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/50 "2003-06-14T19:58:59Z")
Post-war approval ratings don’t mean dick. Ask daddy Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/51 "2003-06-14T20:23:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Scylla_ > It’s just another round of bullshit from the Enemies of Bush trying to create a scandal where none exists. Sort of a vast, left-wing conspiracy, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/52 "2003-06-14T20:44:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*[They haven’t](http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID12/2889.html)? \*\* Wow - thanks for the link, Dewey. Even with my political bent, I had never heard that Laura Bush had run a stop sign and killed someone. The guilt over her negligence must be a heavy burden. I feel sorry for her and for the family of the person she killed. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/53 "2003-06-14T20:54:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*To elaborate, it’s bullshit. Total bullshit. This is basically just another where are the WMDs thread. > > Like Harkens it is bullshit, like Harvard it is bullshit, like the Afghani quagmire being another Vietnam it is bullshit, like the 100,000 U.S. Soldiers were going to die in Iraq was bullshit, like stealing Florida was bullshit, like the “we don’t have enough soldiers in Iraq” was bullshit, like destabilizing the region was bullshit, like millions of deaths in Baghdad was bullshit, like the robbing of all the antiquities was bullshit. > > It’s just another round of bullshit from the Enemies of Bush trying to create a scandal where none exists. > > It is particularly stupid Bullshit because Clinton was sending Tomahawk missiles out because of the nonexistant WMDs, and Iraq’s weapons programs have been an issue in global politics for some time. > > What we have here is a window between the end of the war and the time The WMDs are found for the Enemies of Bush to harp on them just like they harped on everything else. > > Like Chicken Little and the Boy that Cried Wolf, it gets less credible with each iteration, and, the ironic thing is that like Chicken Little, if the sky ever does fall, nobody’s going to believe anymore, effectively making Bush scandal proof. \*\* Ah, another wonderful little **Scylla-gism**. Say that it was Bullshit enough, and maybe it will become true. No, Bush never said there were scads of scuds and dumpsters of WMDs. He never cited falsified documents or intelligence of dubious credibility. The GD liberals made it all up on another witch hunt of a poor defenseless compassionate conservative. You are right. Somebody is losing credibility. The W used to be for “women.” Then it was for WMD’s. Now the W seems to be for “Where are they, George?” I’ve always thought the W was for dumb. Good thing he surrounded himself with all those smart people so they would keep him from making a ghastly poor decision by helping him to interpret the information he was given. Phew. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/54 "2003-06-14T21:19:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\ ***Scylla** …I thought you had some integrity. \*\* Cite? ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/55 "2003-06-14T22:29:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > **The premise for the invasion of Iraq was false. The most generous case that can be made, at least with a straight face, is that Fearless Misleader did not know.** I’ve been thinking about this a great deal recently. Essentially, there are two options: either the Bush Administration lied or the intelligence was wrong. (Okay, I suppose it’s probably more of a spectrum – for example, into which camp does cherrypicking the intelligence for a _causus belli_ fall? But bear with me). If I were a Republican, I’d be hoping and praying that the reality is closer to **Bush Lied** (no, that’s not a typo). Hell, I think everyone should hope that the truth is that the Admin just flat-out **lied** to us. I mean, think about it. If the Admin lied, and the nation gets outraged (as it should), then we boot the Admins and start from scratch. Not too difficult: we do it every 4-8 years. If, however, it turns out that the intelligence was wrong, and the Admin is morally blameless… well, fuck. Our intelligence is no good? How safe does that make me feel? :eek: I mean, I’d like to think that we’re _really_ paying attention in the spy game, trying our damndest to prevent 9-11 Redux. If, however, our intelligence is worthless… well, shit, am I the only one scared by that? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/56 "2003-06-14T22:36:19Z")
Maybe my intelligence is playing tricks on me, but specifically with regard to the uranium I believe high-ranking officials in the CIA, Pentagon, and State Department knew that the Nigerien documents were forged before Bush’s speech. The only way to exculpate Bush right now is to claim that _right at the very top_ there was an abrupt breakdown of communcation. ---
**Author:** ![G-RAY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d9b06d/32.png) [@G-RAY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-RAY)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/57 "2003-06-15T00:25:34Z")
How about “Democrats sweep whitehouse, both houses in 2004” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/58 "2003-06-15T00:41:15Z")
Hmmmm. Needs a soundtrack. “Ode to Joy”? “Hallelujah Chorus”? Ren and Stimpy’s “Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy”? ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/59 "2003-06-15T00:47:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Maybe my intelligence is playing tricks on me, but specifically with regard to the uranium I believe high-ranking officials in the CIA, Pentagon, and State Department knew that the Nigerien documents were forged before Bush’s speech. The only way to exculpate Bush right now is to claim that _right at the very top_ there was an abrupt breakdown of communcation. \*\* Given that Bush was the man _right at the top_ this is sort of believable. Not that I don’t think he should be impeached anyway. If there’s a breakdown in communication right at the top, then it’s clearly his fault, and he should be held accountable even if it turns out that he’s really too stupid to have done it any differently. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751/60 "2003-06-15T00:55:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > If I were a Republican, I’d be hoping and praying that the reality is closer to **Bush Lied** (no, that’s not a typo). I’m a Republican and I hope that the Democrats keep making a fuss about this issue. This [article from today’s NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/14/politics/14WEAP.html) explains why. > [@](#): > > **Democrats Split on Challenging Iraq Arms Hunt** > > WASHINGTON, June 13 — The war in Iraq is once again dividing the Democratic Party, with Congressional leaders and presidential candidates struggling over how strongly to challenge President Bush about the failure so far to find biological or chemical weapons. > > Many party leaders say they are hopeful that questions about the weapons can be turned into a powerful political issue. But others are concerned that it may backfire, given the strong public support for Mr. Bush’s war policies, the public’s apparent indifference to the absence of weapons and the prospect that such weapons could turn up any day. Two points: 1. I’m with those who think this issue will backfire, for the reasons given in the article. Also, it plays into a Democratic weakness: the public doesn’t trust them as much to protect the country militarily. 2. On another level, this article from the Times makes the Democrats out to be insincere. It says that their interest in WMDs is about the political aspects. That’s a losing message. Bush says his interest in WMDs is about protecting the public. That’s a winning message. It’s what the public wants to hear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-shall-we-call-the-latest-bush-scandal/181751.md?page=4)