# What should be done about Gettysburg? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2017, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853 "2017-08-17T05:14:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/61 "2017-08-17T21:34:36Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Snarky, snarky. I’m getting the impression that you believe the removal of confederate monuments is a fools errand. What is your opinion of confederate flags flying over state capitals? Appropriate? Should issues like these be resolved by state legislatures? Public referendum? In my opinion, the current model for targeting a monument or statue for removal is flawed. In terms of legitimacy, legislatures or public referenda are fine. In terms of wisdom, I believe the rush to remove these is badly lacking. And in no event do I countenance [this solution.](http://nypost.com/2017/08/15/officials-respond-after-mob-tears-down-confederate-statue/) As to the flags, I’m much more in favor of changing them. A flag may speak to history, perhaps, but in my opinion is much more about conveying the current position of the country. That’s why we have fifty stars and not thirteen. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/62 "2017-08-18T00:31:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > As for my argument in this case, I don’t really consider an open-air museum to be good enough. Part of what removes the glorification of a statue is to have it indoors and not where everyone can see it. > > I’m also not at all a fan of the reason the statues were made. We didn’t put anything behind us. It would be good if we did, but we didn’t. So I don’t support them on those grounds, either. > > The main thing is that we’ve got to stop glorifying the Confederacy. We’ve got to stop treating this as some glorious War Between the States. The main reason to take down the statues is that the people they are honoring should not be honored. > > I support the museum idea just to try and get Confederates on board. Really, I think we have too many statues, most of them not actually created near the time they depict. I actually worry that museums will eventually become shrines. > > The real issue is just to stop the glorification. If you can come up with a better method, I’m all ears. So you’re saying that these statues can be in museums only so long as they aren’t very large museums? Or is it that a certain percentage of the patrons must scoff at the statues? If it looks like the public is admiring them too much, then off to the smaller museums they go? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/63 "2017-08-18T00:35:12Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So you’re saying that these statues can be in museums only so long as they aren’t very large museums? Or is it that a certain percentage of the patrons must scoff at the statues? If it looks like the public is admiring them too much, then off to the smaller museums they go? How about a Department of Historical Appreciation Enforcement? We can monitor exactly how the public is reacting to unacceptable ideas, and adjust their dosages as necessary. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/64 "2017-08-18T00:35:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If you don’t support them, then you should support doing things to stop them. And one way to stop them is to take down their monuments. They can’t exactly have a protest around a monument if they have no more monuments. > > Another way is to dox them, which you also seem to oppose. > > So what way do you propose to fight them? Why do you seem to always take the side against doing something when it comes to this sort of thing? > > If you oppose something, then you must by your actions show it. The same as, if you believe something, you must by your actions show it. First, they are not “their” monuments. They don’t own them. Second, I am not about “stopping” anyone, if you mean their freedom of speech. The way we “stop” people is by voting. I don’t vote for David Duke. Problem solved. I don’t need to strip David Duke of his First Amendment rights to satisfy your side that I sufficiently disagree with his views. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/65 "2017-08-18T00:41:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How about a Department of Historical Appreciation Enforcement? We can monitor exactly how the public is reacting to unacceptable ideas, and adjust their dosages as necessary. I agree. If others do not agree, the only possible reason would be that they are dog-whistling Nazis. It’s easy and fun to win arguments by simply declaring that I win. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/66 "2017-08-18T02:04:35Z")
> [@MikeG](#): > > Everything I have learned about being disingenuous since December 1999 I have learned from Bricker. > Seriously, I’ve studied his style and used it to great effect. He is a master of the technique. This is not the forum for attacking other posters. If you feel the need to engage in that activity, go open a thread in The BBQ Pit. Do not do this again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/67 "2017-08-19T23:45:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > To the contrary: the post to which I replied offered up precisely the same kind of argument: we should opposed X, because neo-Nazis and the KKK support X. > > My post shows the flaw in that reasoning. > > Do you even understand what a strawman argument is? > > I’m going to declare that you do not, based on this post. A strawman argument imputes a weaker, invalid argument to your opponent and then rebuts it. That did not happen here. Bullshit. The post you responded to was an attempt to make a distinction between, A) The arguable position that people who fought for the Confederacy were not necessarily racist and were called to defend their territories by what they were told by their local authorities was a legitimate government and B) The absolutely indefensible position of making heroes out of the traitors that led those poor souls into battle This is the worst kind of disingenuous crap and you should be ashamed for not arguing in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/68 "2017-08-20T04:02:33Z")
> [@MikeG](#): > > This should be preserved for all time as the best example of a strawman argument. This whole thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/69 "2017-08-20T05:00:19Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Bullshit. > > The post you responded to was an attempt to make a distinction between, > > A) The arguable position that people who fought for the Confederacy were not necessarily racist and were called to defend their territories by what they were told by their local authorities was a legitimate government > > and > > B) The absolutely indefensible position of making heroes out of the traitors that led those poor souls into battle > > This is the worst kind of disingenuous crap and you should be ashamed for not arguing in good faith. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/70 "2017-08-20T05:35:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree. You disagree that you should be ashamed that you are not arguing in good faith? ---
**Author:** ![sharptoys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@sharptoys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sharptoys)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/71 "2017-08-20T06:08:46Z")
I rarely post, but I have to say: What a sad, sad, thread, Bricker. I wonder what your point is. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/72 "2017-08-20T14:08:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Katie Lawhon sounds like a potential white supremacist, amirite? Maybe, but I doubt it. I’d say more but it appears other Dopers have caught on to you: > [@MikeG](#): > > Everything I have learned about being disingenuous since December 1999 I have learned from Bricker. > Seriously, I’ve studied his style and used it to great effect. He is a master of the technique. > [@sharptoys](#): > > I rarely post, but I have to say: > > What a sad, sad, thread, Bricker. > > I wonder what your point is. [click here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXxPVNkR4qw). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/73 "2017-08-20T14:17:17Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > You disagree that you should be ashamed that you are not arguing in good faith? I disagree with your conclusion that I am not arguing in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/74 "2017-08-20T14:19:00Z")
> [@sharptoys](#): > > I rarely post, but I have to say: > > What a sad, sad, thread, Bricker. > > I wonder what your point is. Do you? I thought it was clear: that the reasoning applying to striking down statues can apply in ways that most people would regard as unwise, such as destroying or removing statues and monuments at Gettysburg. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/75 "2017-08-20T14:21:09Z")
> [@sharptoys](#): > > I rarely post, but I have to say: > > What a sad, sad, thread, Bricker. > > I wonder what your point is. Certain members of this board (generally considered ‘liberals’) are hypocrites with muddled thinking processes. It’s a common theme with this guy. I don’t personally care much what happens to statues of confederates, and if turns out a lot of people are offended by them, as seems the case, let them be moved, or removed. These guys aren’t heroes to me, and I would still know about Civil War events even if there were no statues around to remind me. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/76 "2017-08-20T14:24:50Z")
Edit window ran out. > [@septimus](#): > > [click here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXxPVNkR4qw). The CNN commentators agree that the present racist demonstrations are being encouraged by Trump and other “conservatives” to distract from the Russia investigation. “Dogwhistles” are another topic that’s been debated here, with Trumpists and other right-wingers denying the concept even exists. Play the video from the 3:10 mark and hear a former undercover FBI agent who infiltrated neo-Nazi groups identify Trump’s use of just the word “culture” as a racist dog-whistle. (Sorry, for the intrusion from reality-land. Go back to your faux-outrage about Gettysburg National Military Park.) ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/77 "2017-08-20T14:27:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree with your conclusion that I am not arguing in good faith. So you think Katie Lawhon from the Gettysburg National Park is a white supremacist? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/78 "2017-08-20T15:10:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you? > > I thought it was clear: that the reasoning applying to striking down statues can apply in ways that most people would regard as unwise, such as destroying or removing statues and monuments at Gettysburg. Removing statues is appropriate sometimes and inappropriate sometimes. If that’s your whole point, then that seems like a pretty trivial point. Any reasoning for anything can be misapplied or unwisely applied. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/79 "2017-08-20T15:52:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you? > > I thought it was clear: that the reasoning applying to striking down statues can apply in ways that most people would regard as unwise, such as destroying or removing statues and monuments at Gettysburg. In order to make that point you had to ignore posts that suggested that the statues remain with better historical context, but you needed strawmen. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853/80 "2017-08-20T16:43:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you were to learn that the KKK and the neo-Nazis also favor a policy of gaining oxygen by breathing, or believe that the square root of 9 is 3, what would be your position on those propositions? > > I find it distressful in the extreme to have these guys in the world. And as a Hispanic Catholic child of a Salvadoran immigrant, I assure you they would be no fans of me, either. Don’t sell yourself short - maybe to them, you could be “one of the good ones.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-gettysburg/793853.md?page=5)