What should be done about Gettysburg?

[k9bfriender]

@Bricker

No.

The point was that the “claim,” was an assertion, with what looked like a link that offered proof – but the proof was merely a matching opinion. If I used that tactic to buttress claims (“It’s the Left than are the vandals at protests: see breitbart.org”) I’m very certain of the reaction. But the Southern Poverty Law Center is a valid source?

So my point in linking to the National Parks’ Gettysburg cite was simply a general refutation of the claim: the cite discusses the site, so to speak, and does not support the claim that statues in Gettysburg are the result of efforts to intimidate.

I don’t know that that claim was in the article, so it wasn’t exactly refuted. The claims in the article about the statue of lee in le’s circle were addressed by the gettysburg site.

I do find it interesting that you put breitbart and SPLC as equivalents there, though.

That I need not demonize my enemies.

That would be why you don’t have a statue of Lee being hanged. Or a statue of Forrest in front of an execution squad. Or Davis rotting prison.

We have many pictures and other artifacts of many of our enemies throughout history, in museums. It is good to learn from those, as demonizing your opponent doesn’t help you to defeat them.

We have fewer pictures and artifacts of our enemies outside of museums, with the civil war leaders being the only notable example of enemies of the united states that are granted access to the public square.

Can you see the perspective of seeing a statue, and feeling that the meaning of the statue is that the fight is not yet done?

Can you see how that empowers you if you are a white supremacist , or have leanings of that sort?

Can you see how that can intimidate you, if you are a target of the empowered white supremacists?

Nope. I started this thread because people in the real world were proposing removal of statues in Gettysburg.

I started this thread because people in the real world were proposing removal of statues in Gettysburg.

You say that, but I do not see any link of any kind to any person or group who is advocating such. Are these people in your church, family, social circles that we are talking about? Facebook friends, news you see on TV?

Who is it in the real world that you see that is proposing removing the statues in gettysburg?

And, assuming that there are in fact people who do advocate such removal (which I do not doubt, there are probably people that advocate the removal of oxygen from the atmosphere), and that there are enough people advocating for such a thing for any sort of movement to happen (which I do doubt), then it is still needed to compare and contrast as to why the statues that are preserved in an open air museum in gettysburg are different from the statues that stand in front of courthouses, libraries, schools, and other municipal building that people encounter every day in southern cities, if only to point out to those who do advocate the removal from gettysburg.

By pointing out the differences in context, we can show you, and comfort you, that the statues in gettysburg are in no danger. It is only if you refuse to recognize the difference between a statue in gettysburg, and a statue in lee’s circle that it becomes difficult to tell the difference between the statues that should come down with the statues that have no real reason to be removed.

[ElvisL1ves]

The Counselor has assured us repeatedly that he’s discussing the matter in good faith. That should be sufficient.

[Clu-Me-In]

Cut down all of the stupid monuments and statues and give any citizen who wants to take any of them and install in their private property, 30 days to remove them from public property after that grind them into fill.

[k9bfriender]

@k9bfriender

And, assuming that there are in fact people who do advocate such removal (which I do not doubt, there are probably people that advocate the removal of oxygen from the atmosphere), and that there are enough people advocating for such a thing for any sort of movement to happen (which I do doubt), then it is still needed to compare and contrast as to why the statues that are preserved in an open air museum in gettysburg are different from the statues that stand in front of courthouses, libraries, schools, and other municipal building that people encounter every day in southern cities, if only to point out to those who do advocate the removal from gettysburg.

I know, quoting myself is bad form an all, but I had more thoughts about this that I have only just gotten time for now.

The point of gettysburg was that it is a monument to the defeat of the confederate army. It was where the union turned back the armies of the confederates. If they had made it past gettysburg, they could have been marching on washington in short order, obviously a good place to be when you are negotiating for secession.

Gettysburg was the turning point in the war. It was when the north rallied itself to continue on in the fight. That was when the north recommitted itself to preserving the union, and defeating those who would tear it asunder.

So, since you are concerned about how to reply to those in your real life that feel we should get rid of the gettysburg museum, you should remind them of what it stands for, and how it stands for something entirely different than a statue of lee gracing a pedestal outside the town hall.

That said, if the tourism trade dries up, and the town of gettysburg wants to turn the whole thing into mini malls and subdivisions, I would completely support that decision.

[Bricker]

@Richard_Parker

A reminder that white supremacist Katie Lawhon informed us via post #4 that:

And why do you suppose that Katie Lawhon announced this fact?

Could it be in response to public actions concerning Gettysburg, like perhaps these July protest actions?

[Bricker]

@RTFirefly

You sure seem to have started this thread so you could snipe at what persons to the left of you were proposing about Confederate statues in Gettysburg, without taking a position of your own that you might have to defend.

You sure seem to have started this thread so you could snipe at what persons to the left of you were proposing about Confederate statues in Gettysburg, without taking a position of your own that you might have to defend.

And apparently I did it twice.

[Bricker]

@k9bfriender

I don’t know that that claim was in the article, so it wasn’t exactly refuted. The claims in the article about the statue of lee in le’s circle were addressed by the gettysburg site.

I do find it interesting that you put breitbart and SPLC as equivalents there, though.

They are both unreliably biased. In that aspect, they are equivalent.

Can you see the perspective of seeing a statue, and feeling that the meaning of the statue is that the fight is not yet done?

Can you see how that empowers you if you are a white supremacist , or have leanings of that sort?

Can you see how that can intimidate you, if you are a target of the empowered white supremacists?

Yes.

Who is it in the real world that you see that is proposing removing the statues in gettysburg?

I linked to an article above about protests at Gettysburg. Another article in Salon talks about battlefield parks (mentioning Gettysburg, and others) saying:

It’s difficult to imagine memorials to other enemies of the United States existing anywhere inside our borders, much less places where Union soldiers fought and were butchered in the name of preserving the Constitution. These marble men of the South who were tasked with murdering every last one of those Union soldiers and, with them the Constitution itself, have been commemorated with unprecedented and undeserved grandeur.

So I didn’t make up the concept that there is at least some sympathy for attacking the statues on Gettysburg and other National Parks.

And, assuming that there are in fact people who do advocate such removal (which I do not doubt, there are probably people that advocate the removal of oxygen from the atmosphere), and that there are enough people advocating for such a thing for any sort of movement to happen (which I do doubt), then it is still needed to compare and contrast as to why the statues that are preserved in an open air museum in gettysburg are different from the statues that stand in front of courthouses, libraries, schools, and other municipal building that people encounter every day in southern cities, if only to point out to those who do advocate the removal from gettysburg.

OK. I have never disagreed that one can oppose courthouse Robert E. Lee and still support Gettysburg Robert E. Lee in statue form. So I created this thread to talk about Gettysburg Robert E. Lee, trusting the several other threads to handle the city squares and courthouse varieties.

By pointing out the differences in context, we can show you, and comfort you, that the statues in gettysburg are in no danger. It is only if you refuse to recognize the difference between a statue in gettysburg, and a statue in lee’s circle that it becomes difficult to tell the difference between the statues that should come down with the statues that have no real reason to be removed.

Except that you are not the only one in charge of these matters, and, frankly, I sense that you would not be an ardent defender of Gettysburg Lee when the attention is turned even more strongly to him.

So I absolutely recognize the difference – I am less sanguine that all the folks on your side of the aisle do:

@Clu-Me-In

Cut down all of the stupid monuments and statues and give any citizen who wants to take any of them and install in their private property, 30 days to remove them from public property after that grind them into fill.

[k9bfriender]

@Bricker

So I absolutely recognize the difference – I am less sanguine that all the folks on your side of the aisle do:

I visited gettysburg when I was a kid. 8ish, I think. I remember asking something to the effect of, “Why are there statues of the bad guys?”

I don’t remember what my dad’s answer was, and it probably wasn’t all that insightful or profound, but it was something like remembering what happened here.

It is a natural reaction, “Why are we honoring these people who were traitor to our country?”

So, it is a complicated thing, and it is hard to show that the statues of the confederate leaders do not memorialize them in a more positive light than may be prudent given what they did against our country.

Memorials to the fallen on both sides, absolutely, it was the costliest battle of the war. Memorials to the leaders of the Union, sure, they led us to victory, and that accomplishment should be remembered. Monuments to the leaders who betrayed their country, that is a bit odd, and does require a bit of conceptualizing to justify.

Looking at the pictures of the Lee statue, I do not find it all that glorifying or honoring, it’s just him, on top a small monument with some soldiers under. He was there, not having him there would be a bit odd. He was certainly influential in that battle.

To form a better opinion, I’d have to actually go there in person again and evaluate myself to see if his statue is more glorified than it should be, and if it is, then maybe it should be modified a bit, you know maybe turn it into the outhouse. That’s a bit flippant, but if I were arbitrarily in charge of the statutory, I would modify Lee’s statue to better symbolize his retreat.

It is a matter of ignorance to want to destroy gettysburg. It’s not an incurable ignorance, and it is not fatal, nor does it really speak that poorly of the one calling for the removal. It is a nuanced issue that requires a bit more knowledge about the war and events in it to understand why it should be celebrated by those who regard the union as doing the right thing, and it should be a reminder to the south as to what happens when you don’t do the right thing.

So to those who want to remove it, I invite you to read the history of the battle of gettysburg, and learn why, this battleground should be preserved to remind everyone what happened there.

Unless of course, the locals wish to use the land for something else.

(Not that they would, I assume that the tourism trade from the battlefield is the majority of the town’s economy, but still, if they want to develop it, and remove this memorial to a divisive time in our past, then I feel that that is their right.)

[Richard_Parker]

@Bricker

And why do you suppose that Katie Lawhon announced this fact?

Could it be in response to public actions concerning Gettysburg, like perhaps these July protest actions?

I am gonna go with “no” given the actual content of your link.

Perhaps you should read it again?

[Cheesesteak]

They should do the same thing they did with all the statues of Hirohito at Pearl Harbor.

[Bricker]

@Richard_Parker

I am gonna go with “no” given the actual content of your link.

Perhaps you should read it again?

Or I could just read this:

@Cheesesteak

They should do the same thing they did with all the statues of Hirohito at Pearl Harbor.

And then extrapolate a bit.

[RTFirefly]

@Bricker

And apparently I did it twice.

Certainly worth taking to the Pit once.

[DinoR]

@k9bfriender

Looking at the pictures of the Lee statue, I do not find it all that glorifying or honoring, it’s just him, on top a small monument with some soldiers under. He was there, not having him there would be a bit odd. He was certainly influential in that battle.

It’s also there as part of the State of Virginia monument to all their troops. He was a Virginian who was leading the Army of Northern Virginia. Virginians composed a plurality of that Army and suffered 25% casualties. Putting him on top of a monument with Virginian soldiers at the base is one of the least odd places in the nation for a statue of Lee IMO.

Unless of course, the locals wish to use the land for something else.

It’s not their land to choose what to do with anyway. It’s owned by the Federal government and administered as a National Park.

[RTFirefly]

@DinoR

It’s also there as part of the State of Virginia monument to all their troops. He was a Virginian who was leading the Army of Northern Virginia. Virginians composed a plurality of that Army and suffered 25% casualties. Putting him on top of a monument with Virginian soldiers at the base is one of the least odd places in the nation for a statue of Lee IMO.

Yabbut why should Virginia get to decide how the Gettysburg ‘museum’ is going to present Robert E. Lee? That makes no sense at all.

And that’s Commonwealth of Virginia to you! (Yes, I live in Maryland like it says, but I’m a Virginia expat, dammit!)

[Kimstu]

@RTFirefly

Yabbut why should Virginia get to decide how the Gettysburg ‘museum’ is going to present Robert E. Lee? That makes no sense at all.

Interestingly, it was a Pennsylvania legislator who originally proposed a monument to Lee at Gettysburg:

By the beginning of the 20th century the Gettysburg National Battlefield Commission owned a significant portion of the battlefield […] During this same time the “memorial period” of the Gettysburg battlefield was coming to an end. Hundreds of Union markers and monuments had been placed by the veterans during the 1880’s and 1890’s. They dotted the Northern battles lines and covered the landscape. Yet, as the survivors of the battle of Gettysburg passed into history few new monuments found a place on the battlefield.

For myriad reasons, Confederate soldiers never placed regimental monuments in the same fashion their Union counterparts did. The story of the Confederates in the battle was to be told “without praise or censure” by tablets placed under the auspices of the War Department, but these differed considerably from the more unique and ostentatious monuments created and designed by the Union veterans themselves. […]

However, in January of 1903 Pennsylvania State Representative Thomas V. Cooper introduced legislation that would authorize an appropriation of some $20,000 for a memorial to Robert E. Lee. This statue was to be placed somewhere along the Confederate battle lines on Seminary Ridge as a monument to the commander of the Army of Northern Virginia and would be contingent on Virginia raising a similar sum for the likeness. […]

[Bone deleted rest of quote for fair use]

[Merneith]

@k9bfriender

I do find it interesting that you put breitbart and SPLC as equivalents there, though.

The Southern Poverty Law Center identifies and tracks hate groups. This includes anti-gay groups, like the Family Research Council, which sees marriage equality as an attack on their religion. It also tracks misogynistic groups, anti-semitic groups, and various religious groups, including ultra-traditionalist Catholic groups who reject Vatican II and the current Pope’s authority.

Discrediting the SPLC has been a conservative goal for some years now.

[Bone]

@Kimstu

Interestingly, it was a Pennsylvania legislator who originally proposed a monument to Lee at Gettysburg:

Please observe fair use when quoting large portions of text.

[/moderating]

[Kimstu]

@Bone

Please observe fair use when quoting large portions of text.

[/moderating]

Okay, thanks. I’ll summarize the deleted portion (for readers who don’t feel like reading the whole thing at the link) as follows: Many Union vets hated the idea of Confederate monuments in Gettysburg, argued that there were already sufficient commemorative markers of Confederate regiments there to represent the history, snarked that the proposed memorial should “wait until Virginia erects a statue to Abraham Lincoln or to General George Thomas”. Gettysburg Lee statue proposal died in 1903, revived and implemented in 1917, eventually followed by memorials for every other Confederate state represented at Gettysburg.

[RTFirefly]

@Kimstu

Interestingly, it was a Pennsylvania legislator who originally proposed a monument to Lee at Gettysburg:

An interesting fact, certainly, but I don’t see how it’s any more than that.

[Kimstu]

@RTFirefly

An interesting fact, certainly, but I don’t see how it’s any more than that.

It’s not much more than that. But I suppose there’s some kind of argument to be made there for a national park representing the history of all the participants. I sure think that argument should be accompanied by advocacy for more statues of Union leaders in Confederate-area military memorial parks, though.