# What should be done about Haiti? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 5, 2024, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513 "2024-03-05T21:58:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/1 "2024-03-05T21:58:56Z")
It has been bad for a long time but then they had the terrible 2010 earthquake. It just got worse from there. It now appears that heavily armed gangs are trying to turn the country upside down. I think it is getting in a place where just sending more aid is not helpful much to their long-term outlook. What should be done? I tend to lean on the isolationist side, so I don’t want the US to really get involved. However, if I was honest and asked what is truly best for the people of Haiti, I think the best thing would be if some alliance of countries led by the US to completely take over the country and install marshal law for a decade while setting up a government. Yeah, I know the US does not have a great track record of nation building, but I am thinking it can only improve from where they are. I also don’t see it as nearly as susceptible to so many external pressures and internal divisions as Iraq/Afghanistan. I feel like the people have more of a national identity and desire for a western style democracy. That makes a big difference! What do you think should be done (if anything)? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/2 "2024-03-05T22:10:51Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > However, if I was honest and asked what is truly best for the people of Haiti, I think the best thing would be if some alliance of countries led by the US to completely take over the country and install marshal law for a decade while setting up a government. … if I was honest and asked what is truly best for the people of the United States of America, I think the best thing would be if some alliance of countries led by Haiti to completely take over the country and install marshal law for a decade while setting up a government. > [@Hermitian](#): > > What do you think should be done (if anything)? I think that you have failed to articulate what the issue is here in your OP that needs fixing, and if there was any country in the world right now that needs international intervention for the good of the people and to ensure proper democratic processes, its the United States of America. From fascist militaristic police forces that act largely with no civilian oversight, to a rogue supreme court, to states outlawing abortion and trans rights to literal slavery still being allowed in prisons, there is no country in the world that needs an intervention more than the United States of America. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/3 "2024-03-05T22:15:00Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > I feel like the people have more of a national identity and desire for a western style democracy. If the Haitians desire a western style democracy, the last thing they need is to have a group of nations invade them and establish martial law. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/4 "2024-03-05T22:15:04Z")
I thought it was martial. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/5 "2024-03-05T22:25:52Z")
Sounds like a plan! ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/6 "2024-03-05T22:26:31Z")
Good point. I always got C’s in spelling. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/7 "2024-03-05T22:28:31Z")
So, does that mean do nothing? Or do you have another suggestion? ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/8 "2024-03-05T22:32:34Z")
Perhaps the United Nations should send in peace keeping forces to, well, keep the peace. The UN has to be good for something. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/9 "2024-03-05T22:33:28Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > So, does that mean do nothing? Or do you have another suggestion? …you haven’t explained what the problem is you want to fix is yet. If you want to “completely take over a country and install martial law for a decade while setting up a government”, you need to provide slightly better justification than" It just got worse from there." You need to actually make a case. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/10 "2024-03-05T22:34:16Z")
I heard a piece on the radio yesterday that mentioned the 1000 Kenyan police officer plan was one step closer to reality. Seriously, that’s the best idea they have now, send 1000 armed guys far from home to do what thousands of domestic cops haven’t. > **[Kenya and Haiti sign agreements to try and salvage plan to deploy Kenyan...](https://apnews.com/article/kenya-haiti-un-police-force-gang-violence-30930ccf3cbc31c6969cabd6c9dacb2c)** > > Kenya and Haiti have signed agreements to try to salvage a plan for the African country to deploy 1,000 police officers to the troubled Caribbean nation to help combat gang violence that has surged to unprecedented levels. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/11 "2024-03-05T22:34:19Z")
Do actual nation building. Education, sanitation, healthcare, clamp down on corruption that discourages investment, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/12 "2024-03-05T22:38:09Z")
Maybe I have misread the situation. My understanding is that the central government has essentially powerless and it is heading toward being a failed state. The last headline I saw is that they don’t know where the Prime minster is. If it continues, the people in the country will just get worse and worse. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/13 "2024-03-05T22:44:57Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > The last headline I saw is that they don’t know where the Prime minster is. He is in Puerto Rico on his way back to Haiti: > **[Haiti’s embattled prime minister lands in Puerto Rico as armed gangs...](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/haitis-embattled-prime-minister-lands-in-puerto-rico-as-armed-gangs-terrorize-his-nation)** > > Prime Minister Ariel Henry has been notably absent since the country's latest and most serious outbreak of violence started last week. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/14 "2024-03-05T22:46:45Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > However, if I was honest and asked what is truly best for the people of Haiti, I think the best thing would be if some alliance of countries led by the US to completely take over the country and install marshal law for a decade while setting up a government. Well, that ‘plan’ lacks virtue of not already having been tried: > **[The long legacy of the U.S. occupation of Haiti](https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/08/06/haiti-us-occupation-1915/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzA5NjE0ODAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzEwOTkzNTk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MDk2MTQ4MDAsImp0aSI6IjE3MDRhMzE4LTViNzgtNDQ5ZS1hNTg3LWJlNzg3MWM3MTQ2MSIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9oaXN0b3J5LzIwMjEvMDgvMDYvaGFpdGktdXMtb2NjdXBhdGlvbi0xOTE1LyJ9.s867KGdD1XEpPBQDhw6ZzdqqJ8UkGR9e4jOe0PFbh48&itid=gfta)** > > In 1915, the U.S. military invaded Haiti. Over the next 19 years, it executed dissidents and instigated a system of forced labor. The occupation, largely at the behest of the National City Bank of New York, largely to ensure force labor for both the domestic sugar cane industry and that of Cuba, was not the beginning of corruption in Haitian politics but it certainly didn’t improve things. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the United States is responsible for all of the troubles of the modern Haitian people (France and perhaps surprisingly the German Empire also bear considerable culpability for the state of affairs Haiti) but the US has been engaging in enough covert and occasionally overt shitfuckery in and around Haiti that I don’t think the promise of US ‘intervention’ and imposition of democracy is going to be viewed as promising even if it is fully well-intentioned. > [@Hermitian](#): > > Yeah, **I know the US does not have a great track record of nation building** , but I am thinking it can only improve from where they are. I also don’t see it as nearly as susceptible to so many external pressures and internal divisions as Iraq/Afghanistan. I feel like the people have more of a national identity and desire for a western style democracy. That makes a big difference! [bolding added] That’s putting it mildly. I think you should read a few books on the development and modern history of Haiti and its people, as well as the success of colonization/nation-building exercises before advocating for a wholesale intervention and indefinite occupation. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/15 "2024-03-05T22:47:44Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > Maybe I have misread the situation. My understanding is that the central government has essentially powerless and it is heading toward being a failed state. The last headline I saw is that they don’t know where the Prime minster is. …do you know anything about this history of Haiti? > **[History of Haiti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Haiti)** > > The recorded history of Haiti began in 1492, when the European captain and explorer Christopher Columbus landed on a large island in the region of the western Atlantic Ocean that later came to be known as the Caribbean. The western portion of the island of Hispaniola, where Haiti is situated, was inhabited by the Taíno and Arawakan people, who called their island Ayiti. The island was promptly claimed for the Spanish Crown, where it was named La Isla Española ("the Spanish Island"), later Lati... > **[Haiti Independence Debt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_Independence_Debt)** > > The Haiti indemnity controversy involves an 1825 agreement between Haiti and France that included France demanding an indemnity of 150 million francs to be paid by Haiti in claims over property – including Haitian slaves – that was lost through the Haitian Revolution in return for diplomatic recognition, with the debt removing $21 billion from the Haitian economy. The first annual payment alone was six times Haiti's annual revenue. The payment was later reduced to 90 million francs in 18 France's... It’s a country that has been screwed over by international meddling _forever_. The very last thing it needs is yet _another_ colonial takeover in the name of “helping them out.” And if there was anyone in the world right now that I wouldn’t be trusting to “install martial law for a decade while setting up a government” it would be the US. They would focus on extracting as much wealth from the country as possible, rewrite the constitution, when they get bored in a few years will leave the country in a worse state that they found it and when it all collapses again they will shrug and say “well, what would you expect?” ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/16 "2024-03-05T22:49:39Z")
One of our residents and her husband are very active in charity work in Haiti. They gave a talk on it about a year ago and the situation sounds unfixable at this point. Major charities have abandoned their presence there because of the impossibility of getting food and other items to the people who need it. Everything is hijacked by the gangs. Without intervention from outside, it appears to be hopeless. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/17 "2024-03-05T22:53:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They would focus on extracting as much wealth from the country as possible, rewrite the constitution, when they get bored in a few years will leave the country in a worse state that they found it and when it all collapses again they will shrug and say “well, what would you expect?” Just like the US did in Japan and Germany! ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/18 "2024-03-05T22:55:17Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I think you should read a few books on the development and modern history of Haiti and its people, as well as the success of colonization/nation-building exercises before advocating for a wholesale intervention and indefinite occupation. I didn’t actually say that I thought that we SHOULD (because I don’t think that is the US’s job), I just said I think they would end up with a better situation than they have NOW. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/19 "2024-03-05T22:57:24Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Do actual nation building. Education, sanitation, healthcare, clamp down on corruption that discourages investment, etc. I have no doubt you intend this with all sincerity but the nut of the problem is that ‘nation building’ is a really difficult job that takes a generation or more of concerted effort and investment, and more importantly, has to be done from within, in cooperation with indigenous leaders who, if not entirely incorruptible, will at least see the value of building a nation rather than taking every possible opportunity to line their own pockets and ensconce their familial interests in high government positions. When all of the ‘help’ comes from the outside in the form of foreign aid and NGOs which work to develop an infrastructure that isn’t what the occupants need or can sustain without continuous foreign support, and all of which is really just used to extract resources or better utilize the population for cheap labor, it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle of corruption and waste from both within and without. > [@Hermitian](#): > > Just like the US did in Japan and Germany! So, you are suggesting that the US should co-opt the gangs (after executing a few of the leaders as a good show of “denazification”) and put them to the task of getting everybody else in line? And let’s be clear about why the US did ‘nation-building’ in post-WWII Germany and Japan; because they were both of strategic interest in the looming conflict of the Cold War which justified investment at any cost, not out of any sense of altruistic duty or general well-being. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513/20 "2024-03-05T22:58:43Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > Just like the US did in Japan and Germany! …why are you imagining post-war Germany and not the current Taliban-ruled Afghanistan? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-about-haiti/998513.md?page=2)