# What should be done in response to the White Power gesture being flashed on camera? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 15, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895 "2019-12-15T16:10:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/201 "2019-12-18T00:07:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A \*\*few \*\*Racists have decided that the OK sign is a (not-so) secret symbol supporting racism. > > And there you are wrong- America first, and isolationism is a deeply patriotic but racist movement. Many racists are deeply patriotic, and think they are keeping America pure. They fly the American flag everywhere. To _them_, it _is_ a symbol of what they believe. **Enough** racists have decided that the OK sign is a (not-so) secret symbol supporting racism. I mean, _I’ve_ heard about it, and I don’t get out much. And there’s suddenly a bunch of people out there getting pictures of themselves making the OK sign for _some_ reason, and I don’t think it’s because all of a sudden they’re feeling more okay than they were previously. And no, flying the american flag has not been changed into a (not so) secret symbol supporting racism. If you fly an american flag they’re not going to assume you’re racist - unlike if you flash them the OK sign. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/202 "2019-12-18T00:29:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure- they are they are even more gullible than progressive pearl clutching over-reacters. They don’t have to be gullible to have started doing this - they could just have seen the idea and thought, “Shit, that’s pretty clever. We should totally start doing this for real.” Because this is, in fact, exactly the sort of tactic that white supremacists love - latching on to a symbol or slogan that appears innocuous but has a secondary meaning that’s only clear to other like-minded people. They’ve done it with the numbers 88 and 13, they’ve done it with phrases like “New York intellectual.” They’ve done it with [punctuation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_parentheses). It may have started as a hoax, but the idea is still a perfect example of how far-right radical propaganda works, so its no surprise at all that actual far-right radicals seized on it as a useful method of propagandizing new members. And, of course, even if they are a bunch of gullible rubes who fell for a 4chan hoax, the fact that there are white supremacists out there using this as a white power symbol means it’s not a hoax anymore. Regardless of how it started, it’s now an actual way of recognizing (and representing) white power advocates, and anyone whose life is threatened by these sorts of goons would be foolish to ignore these sorts of warning signs just because “its a 4chan hoax.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/203 "2019-12-18T00:44:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m sorry, but no. > > We are not engaged in the justice system here, so principles of justice don’t apply. > > Also, racism and white supremacism have been fundamental values of our society and institutions since the beginning. Granting the benefit of the doubt regarding racism does nothing but perpetuate the power of the white supremacist system. If you insist on putting in terms of justice, it’s sham justice. The principles of ethics, fairness or the scientific method might apply, though. It might be sham justice to assume it was a benign gesture and ignore it completely, which could perpetuate offensive actions. Even if it was completely benign, it has garnered enough attention that it will be investigated. There are ways of doing this properly. It is true and regrettable many societies have racial views and institutions. It is true this will continue in the future, and we agree this needs to change. This is not done by being unfair and precipitous, but by winning hearts and minds. (Comedian Jim Jefferies: One thing that is true is that meeting hate with hate doesn’t work. It has never worked. It only generates more hate. This may be the most hippie thing I ever say, but only love beats hate. Okay. Love doesn’t always beat hate. If someone hates you, and you show them love, they’ll probably keep hating you. But eventually everyone will see that they’re the asshole. Now, that being said, I hate Muslims. And Christians, and Buddhists, and everybody. I hate…) So the best thing to do, better than an unruly mob or endless media talking head prattle, is to find out the intent and act proportionally. Hold an impartial, lawful, clear, transparent, private and complete investigation in accordance with accepted principles. Refrain from applying any sanctions or any prejudging of conclusions. If this is a repeated action by someone with noxious views, this is treated differently from an immature and innocuous action. And that is not too hard to determine. This is not sham justice. I’m a nice guy. If you cut me off when driving, I might honk my horn. On a bad day, I might make an out-of-character gesture, no matter (and without knowing) who the other driver is. Theoretically, it might look bad in certain circumstances if this one moment were broadcast. Yes, it’s a poor analogy. There was a news piece showing (alleged) neo-Nazis drinking gallons of milk. This was stated as a power symbol because ethnic groups can differ in the amount of lactase in their body. I’m not going to stop drinking milk because idiots drank large amounts during a rally. I am willing to believe this ridiculous gesture is a form of trolling, but it is even more ridiculous if genuinely believed. I’ve heard four year old kids swear, repeating something they heard, and be delighted at the shock this caused others. Hate should not be tolerated, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/204 "2019-12-18T00:58:03Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > So the best thing to do, better than an unruly mob or endless media talking head prattle, is to find out the intent and act proportionally. Hold an impartial, lawful, clear, transparent, private and complete investigation in accordance with accepted principles. Refrain from applying any sanctions or any prejudging of conclusions. If this is a repeated action by someone with noxious views, this is treated differently from an immature and innocuous action. And that is not too hard to determine. How do you recommend that any of the posters in this thread follow this advice in this specific case? ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/205 "2019-12-18T02:20:58Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > This may have been linked already, but [here’s a pretty good NY Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/us/ok-sign-white-power.html) about the appropriation of the OK sign. If you’ll read the link I posted earlier, you will see that the OK sign had already been appropriated before the so-called 4chan “hoax”. It seems more likely that 4chan got tricked into popularizing what was then a little known white supremacist gesture. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/206 "2019-12-18T02:42:42Z")
My first post summarizes my view, based on limited information. I don’t have enough context to know what was meant. My opinion, which may be naive, and applies only to this situation. But Bear Nenno has been making sensible posts for decades, and seems experienced in this area. My second post is clumsy. I largely agree with your opinion and know even “jokes” can be inappropriate. Maybe others have more context on this than I do. Until more information is available, I would not assume malevolence rather than a poorly considered gesture, but I saw a few seconds of footage in uncertain context. I believe in the benefit of the doubt, others may reasonably disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/207 "2019-12-18T05:37:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How many people named Adolf changed their name after 1934? Only those that didn’t own a brewery. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/208 "2019-12-18T13:13:01Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > So the best thing to do, better than an unruly mob or endless media talking head prattle, is to find out the intent and act proportionally. Hold an impartial, lawful, clear, transparent, private and complete investigation in accordance with accepted principles. Refrain from applying any sanctions or any prejudging of conclusions. If this is a repeated action by someone with noxious views, this is treated differently from an immature and innocuous action. And that is not too hard to determine. Why do you think the onus should be on the non-racist folks to determine which side of the line the questionably racist fall on? If the questionably racist folks can’t be bothered to differentiate themselves from the racists then why should any of us be bothered to do it for them? ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/209 "2019-12-18T14:09:49Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > If you’ll read the link I posted earlier, you will see that the OK sign had already been appropriated before the so-called 4chan “hoax”. It seems more likely that 4chan got tricked into popularizing what was then a little known white supremacist gesture. Thanks. I did miss that earlier. And I had my timeline screwed up. I remember Jim Hoft doing it in the White House, but I thought that was after the 4chan “hoax”. As your cite notes, the 4chan thing was after that, and after the “Three Percenters” had also started using it. There seem to be two slightly different versions of the white supremacist gesture. The Three Percenters and others seem to prefer a version that looks pretty identical to the innocent OK sign, but with the fingers often pointed down. Hoft and others use a version where the forefinger is bent inward like they’re pinching something very hard, and the other three fingers are curled somewhat. IIRC when Hoft did it, it was referred to in some reports as a “Pepe the Frog” symbol, Pepe being another innocuous thing the racists latched on to. So, yeah. The OK gesture has been declining in popularity for a while, racists glom on to it, and 4chan cements the association with a “hoax” that could well have been a deliberate attempt to further hijack the symbol. And whenever someone says, “someone should make sure that guy learning how to kill people and destroy things isn’t a white nationalist”, they can be accused of being a “pearl clutcher”. Awesome. I hate the 21st century. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/210 "2019-12-18T14:25:01Z")
> [@Mallard](#): > > Only those that didn’t own a brewery. :dubious: I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/211 "2019-12-18T14:30:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t get it. Adolph Coors ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/212 "2019-12-18T14:45:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Adolph Coors Ah, I just looked it up. Turns out his grandson Adoph Coors III lived until 1960. Guess no one told him that his name was associated with a Nazi or else he would have immediately changed it lest people think he was a Nazi. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/213 "2019-12-18T14:46:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Adolph Coors Or Adolphus Busch, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/214 "2019-12-18T15:06:12Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > Or Adolphus Busch, for that matter. Except that Adolphus Busch died decades before the Second World War. ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/215 "2019-12-18T15:35:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Ah, I just looked it up. Turns out his grandson Adoph Coors III lived until 1960. Guess no one told him that his name was associated with a Nazi or else he would have immediately changed it lest people think he was a Nazi. and his father Adolf Coors 2 lived until 1970. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/216 "2019-12-18T15:40:51Z")
Why doesn’t the other Adolf change _his_ name? He’s the one who sucks! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/217 "2019-12-18T15:55:37Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Why doesn’t the other Adolf change _his_ name? He’s the one who sucks! nice! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/218 "2019-12-18T16:22:55Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Ah, I just looked it up. Turns out his grandson Adoph Coors III lived until 1960. Guess no one told him that his name was associated with a Nazi or else he would have immediately changed it lest people think he was a Nazi. I see you are unfamiliar with the general stripe of the Coors’ family politics. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/219 "2019-12-18T16:25:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I see you are unfamiliar with the general stripe of the Coors’ family politics. Were they nazis? I hope they were nazis. Then I can show my support to nazis by putting pictures of me drinking Coors on Instaface or twittergram or whatever young people use nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/220 "2019-12-18T16:35:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Were they nazis? I hope they were nazis. Then I can show my support to nazis by putting pictures of me drinking Coors on Instaface or twittergram or whatever young people use nowadays. Well, racists for sure. If you want to join the 4chan alt-right parade, I can’t stop you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895.md?page=12)