# What should be done in response to the White Power gesture being flashed on camera? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 15, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895 "2019-12-15T16:10:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/341 "2019-12-20T23:30:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That is not only not obvious, it is transparently untrue. It’s untrue that “_it can be a racist symbol_”?😕 Are you saying it’s\* never\* a racist symbol? or that it’s _always_ a racist symbol? Or are we just having a communication issue? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/342 "2019-12-20T23:34:25Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > This is sort of like saying that if people had ignored the Nazis they would have stopped using the swastika and the Bellamy salute. > … > > Ignoring them will make them go away, eh? Just like it worked back in the thirties? > > It doesn’t gratify me at all. But actions, even stupid actions, have consequences. If getting this kind of attention from your military superiors can ruin your lives, maybe they shouldn’t have been caught making hand signs that look like the OK sign while it’s gaining infamy for being racist. If the Germans had ignored them, they would have gone away. The Nazis were a lot of things, - racists, assholes, Militaristic jerks, but they were very very real, my Father saw them in action rather up close and personal. Hardly trolls. They very much meant to kill my Dad and everyone else in the US Army. They were not a hoax. And Godwin wins again. ☹ The Nazis of WW2 have nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/343 "2019-12-20T23:35:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I have extreme doubts that white supremacists are morally opposed to pointing their OK gestures sideways or even downwards if the situation requires it. Gestures are a form of communication. Changing the shape or orientation of the gesture can change the meaning drastically. Hell, just look what happens when somone turns a “thumbs up” downwards. I don’t believe they would be morally opposed to changing the symbol. But its pointless if nobody recognizes it. Think about it in reverse. If you asked me how I was feeling, and I made a circle gesture on my thigh, you would think I was crazy. You would not think I was trying to say I was “A-Okay!” Similarly, a neo-nazi isn’t going to communicate WP by making a circle gesture like that. Not because of moral objections, but out of a desire for the message to actually be received. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/344 "2019-12-20T23:51:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If the Germans had ignored them, they would have gone away. Which Germans? It’s my understanding that the ones that weren’t swept up in supporting them _did_ stand by, for the most part, and that’s exactly why they _didn’t_ go away. However my knowledge of history is unreliable and I am amenable to being disproven by cites. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And Godwin wins again. ☹ > > The Nazis of WW2 have nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. God(win), you’re slow - this was _hardly_ the first mention in this thread about the obvious parallels between the nazis appropriating the swastika and today’s nazi wannabes appropriating the OK gesture. And yes, the obvious parallels are obvious. > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Gestures are a form of communication. Changing the shape or orientation of the gesture can change the meaning drastically. Hell, just look what happens when somone turns a “thumbs up” downwards. I don’t believe they would be morally opposed to changing the symbol. But its pointless if nobody recognizes it. Think about it in reverse. If you asked me how I was feeling, and I made a circle gesture on my thigh, you would think I was crazy. You would not think I was trying to say I was “A-Okay!” Similarly, a neo-nazi isn’t going to communicate WP by making a circle gesture like that. Not because of moral objections, but out of a desire for the message to actually be received. Are you seriously arguing, in this thread discussing whether some non-upright OK signs were racist in meaning, that the neo-nazis are worried that nobody will recognize that non-upright OK signs might be racist in meaning? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/345 "2019-12-21T00:18:59Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Which Germans? It’s my understanding that the ones that weren’t swept up in supporting them _did_ stand by, for the most part, and that’s exactly why they _didn’t_ go away. > > However my knowledge of history is unreliable and I am amenable to being disproven by cites.God(win), you’re slow - this was _hardly_ the first mention in this thread about the obvious parallels between the nazis appropriating the swastika and today’s nazi wannabes appropriating the OK gesture. > > And yes, the obvious parallels are obvious. > Are you seriously arguing, in this thread discussing whether some non-upright OK signs were racist in meaning, that the neo-nazis are worried that nobody will recognize that non-upright OK signs might be racist in meaning? I am saying that a “non-upright OK sign” is no longer an OK sign. I’m arguing that they are two distinctly different gestures. One of those gestures has been used by some white supremacists. The other has not. It has nothing to do with “moral objection” to making a sideways okay sign as you suggested, but rather its simply because if you change the gesture enough, it becomes a different gesture complete with different and often dubious meanings. I guess its your statement that confuses me. You said you have extreme doubt that white supremacists are “morally opposed to pointing their OK gestures sideways”. What do morals have to do with it? A sideways OK gesture is **not** an OK gesture anymore than a sideways “thumbs up gesture” is still a “thumbs up gesture”. Granted, some gestures can retain meaning if oriented in different directions–like the peace symbol. Someone flashibg a sideways peace symbol is still flashing a peace symbol. But not all gestures are like that. An OK gesture pointed upside down or sideways is no longer an OK symbol. Just picture someone doing that (holding out an upside down OK sign") in response to a question? I doubt the “okay” message would be effectively communicated and there would be much staring and confusion. Similarly, if neo-nazis have adopted the OK gesture, then making a similar but upsidedown gesture is not going to make any sense. To anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/346 "2019-12-21T02:15:42Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Ignoring the almost 2 billion Hindus… Aaaaaand Global Warming is Solved, Too! Oh, shit. Forgot about China. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/347 "2019-12-21T04:52:21Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > Yes. Doing silly stuff like the circle game is a bored junior troop thing not a racial thing IME. I wonder if there are any photographs or video of black troops playing the circle game? There’s gotta be, I would think, right? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/348 "2019-12-21T05:00:16Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The people in the link in post 254 are using the right-side-up version that I think of as the OK sign. So presuming the caption’s accurate, apparently that version is also in use by racists. I suppose it is but everyone was in a tizzy over the pics from the Army/Navy game. Those are the only ‘OK’ signs I was referring to. I only saw upside down versions there but I didn’t look too hard. Whatever. Racists gonna racistify. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/349 "2019-12-21T07:08:34Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I wonder if there are any photographs or video of black troops playing the circle game? There’s gotta be, I would think, right? ![](https://media1.tenor.com/m/xY0NgyXeJN0AAAAC/thecirclegame.gif "Thecirclegame GIF - Thecirclegame - Discover & Share GIFs") > [@](#): > > It sounds like they did a thorough investigation, including a background check and interviewing a bunch of people. Yes, even the FBI assissted: "“The investigation — which included review of video footage, more than two dozen interviews, and background checks by Naval Criminal Investigative Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation — determined that two Fourth Class Midshipmen (freshmen) were participating in a sophomoric game, commonly known as ‘the circle game,’ with West Point Cadets during the live broadcast,” the Naval Academy said Friday in a statement, [Military.com](http://Military.com) reported. “The investigation found no evidence of racist intent.” ([Washington Times.](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/dec/20/west-point-naval-academy-reject-racism-claims-soph/)) > [@](#): > > I’m glad they took it seriously and glad it turned out to be nothing. At least for my part I learned a lot from this fiasco. I underestimated the prevalence of the circle game (it was done, but not that often, in my college days, and I never considered that adults were doing it in any numbers), and I failed to discriminate (ha!) between the game and the OK gesture, which white supremacists have coopted. I have a more nuanced view than I did a few days ago. Thanks for your posts, Bear\_Nenno Your objectivity and your praise are appreciated. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/350 "2019-12-21T13:28:00Z")
Q: What cases are known where people in a crowd made this gesture and it was eventually determined that this was in fact racist? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/351 "2019-12-21T14:31:51Z")
It’s just a game. And like any really good game, it appeals to such a wide cross-section of people! [Here’s a mass shooter just playing the game](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/L/LM/fark_LM5zbPeB2GmEUvxktxtO_gZRVkA.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=0bKhGxHfHlz0Eg9q9RpX2a%2FuI%2F0%3D) [Here’s someone playing the game while seated behind Kavanaugh.](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/b/bY/fark_bYXLJJ_OtmK8sU_oXTOVYNC-j8U.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=6ZyWNv5AL8flNXOdzPlEUDOtqyw%3D) [Do you think she would have gotten more points had she wore](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/O/OZ/fark_OZHDXcs2unTINPUpOhIoktAjxCI.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=6FpfuUlbK7kTAmVjox5bHUPbTKY%3D) a [rainbow wig](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TlBkWxyAmro/VdQUmVeD85I/AAAAAAAA6Jg/g9JGer6WXZE/s1600/RAINBOW%2BMAN%2BJOHN%2B316%2B%25281997%2529%2BRollen%2BStewart%2B6.jpg)? [Richard Spencer is notorious for his gamesmanship](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/w/wN/fark_wNXfF6sXF15F4HjMs61dZspCfmA.png?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=wA3QWZzTGSFAUnf4yn294OS1DdQ%3D) [Junior High Schoolers add a very fun wave when they play the game!](https://assets.teenvogue.com/photos/5bfc4f3d33c0197abdc26860/master/w_1280%2Cc_limit/lede.jpg) [Even notoriously right wing politicians in France are playing!](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6oBhy1WsAs5vgq?format=jpg&name=large) [Even protestors can play the game with one hand while carrying a flag that represents keeping America a white country with the other!](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/9/9z/fark_9zxeugBAFnGwjwpreL9EP0wpxWc.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=2R%2BhK2vDn6YpTz91v8K5fJ8a8Yo%3D) [Well, okay!](https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1494694898798.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/352 "2019-12-21T15:12:32Z")
I guess your total lack of attention to detail just makes you incapable of recognizing the fact that these are two completely different gestures. I could post five dozen pictures of minorities making an “okay” gesture, but what will that prove to you? You’re just going to continue to believe that any time a white person makes the “okay” sign, they are promoting their neo-nazi ideals, and every time a white person photobombs with a circle game gesture, you’re going to believe their sending secret codes to their white supremacists buddies. This is deapite what the Antidefamation League says, despite what the NCIS and the FBI says, despite what Army investigators sayand despite what Snopes says, you are going to ignore it all and see it all as a White Power conspiracy. You make my head hurt. To answer your question, though, most of those people are just saying “okay”. Others you linked to are in fact playing the circle game. Can you not tell the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/353 "2019-12-21T16:14:28Z")
[Here’s a mass shooter just playing the game](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/L/LM/fark_LM5zbPeB2GmEUvxktxtO_gZRVkA.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=0bKhGxHfHlz0Eg9q9RpX2a%2FuI%2F0%3D) I’ve already addressed this picture. [Here’s someone playing the game while seated behind Kavanaugh.](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/b/bY/fark_bYXLJJ_OtmK8sU_oXTOVYNC-j8U.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=6ZyWNv5AL8flNXOdzPlEUDOtqyw%3D) That’s an “okay” gesture used to communicate her gratitude to a staffer bringing her water. [Do you think she would have gotten more points had she wore](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/O/OZ/fark_OZHDXcs2unTINPUpOhIoktAjxCI.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=6FpfuUlbK7kTAmVjox5bHUPbTKY%3D) That’s the same woman resting her hand on her arm. I guess humans _are_ predisposed to find patterns where they don’t exist. Do you really think this Mexican American woman, born in Mexico, with Jewish grandparents who survived the Holocaust, is a White Supremacist? Is that what you really think? Or are you just not thinking at all? That’s likely the issue. a [rainbow wig](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TlBkWxyAmro/VdQUmVeD85I/AAAAAAAA6Jg/g9JGer6WXZE/s1600/RAINBOW%2BMAN%2BJOHN%2B316%2B%25281997%2529%2BRollen%2BStewart%2B6.jpg)? That isn’t even close to an “OK” gesture or a circle game gesture. Are you going to complain about GI Joe’s racist kung-fu grip next? Anything remotely circular is racist? [Richard Spencer is notorious for his gamesmanship](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/w/wN/fark_wNXfF6sXF15F4HjMs61dZspCfmA.png?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=wA3QWZzTGSFAUnf4yn294OS1DdQ%3D) That is indeed an okay gesture. Could be intended to mean WP. This _is_, afterall, the gesture which has been adopted by some White Supremacists. Unlike the circle game gesture which has not. [Junior High Schoolers add a very fun wave when they play the game!](https://assets.teenvogue.com/photos/5bfc4f3d33c0197abdc26860/master/w_1280%2Cc_limit/lede.jpg) Very good. That is the circle gesture and they are playing the circle game. Do you find it hard to believe that a bunch of kids play a kid’s game? [Even notoriously right wing politicians in France are playing!](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6oBhy1WsAs5vgq?format=jpg&name=large) Not a circle game gesture. That’s the OK gesture. As we said, some alt-right extremists use it too. So, maybe that’s what they’re doing. It’s possible. [Even protestors can play the game with one hand while carrying a flag that represents keeping America a white country with the other!](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/9/9z/fark_9zxeugBAFnGwjwpreL9EP0wpxWc.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=2R%2BhK2vDn6YpTz91v8K5fJ8a8Yo%3D)That’s the OK gesture. It very likely means WP in this context, or he is expressing his approval for one hell of a White Power parade. Don’t know. I can easily accept that he’s flashing a WP sign because some neo-nazis use the OK gesture as a WP gesture. But what this definitely 100% is NOT is the circle game gesture. Can you tell the difference yet? [Well, okay!](https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1494694898798.jpg)That’s an okay gesture, not a circle game gesture. Noone is denying that the okay gesture has been adopted by some white supreacists. [This is a circle game gesture](https://www.google.com/search?q=made+you+look&client=ms-android-samsung-gn-rev1&prmd=ivmn&sxsrf=ACYBGNQo4sUvwOgAt7mN7mp96CvBaWn0lQ:1576944527610&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj59ZeTkMfmAhVkhuAKHT7XCkkQ_AUoAXoECA8QAQ&biw=412&bih=718&dpr=3.5#imgrc=9InTM15r4XSZpM) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/354 "2019-12-21T17:41:13Z")
The point is the self-righteous incredulity of some in this thread (_cough_ including you _cough_) who absolutely refuse to believe that white supremacists have co-opted it, that it was remotely possible that these fine young soldiers might have either been some of them or knew about it and were using it knowing full well how some use it despite it being covered in the mainstream media - the first hits on Google for ‘white supremacist okay sign’ come from the NY Times, CNN, Esquire, Washington Post, AP, BBC, and NPR and the ADL deemed it a [Hate Symbol](https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture) - that it’s a [prank from 4chan](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/b/by/fark_bydHsSbHIWl_GgYdkrnaRaEg38M.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=inPk9YXNpC8TavJEbSEFDuWuqtg%3D) (so known for their subtlety), the flagellation of the armed forces as a paragon of virtue in spite of evidence to the contrary. We live in a racist as fuck country and in a time where the racist-in-chief has normalized expressing that racism in a variety of ways. It’s obvious that a lot of people do it. Sure, maybe not these fine, upstanding cadets, but the SHOCK and HORROR that people who are evidently a lot more knowledgeable than those cadets might consider (with ample evidence) that maybe that’s a stupid fucking thing to do with your fingers nowadays? Especially when on television representing the country in uniform? There’s ample evidence to be suspicious of their motives. And even if they aren’t racist shitbags, hopefully they figured out that whether it’s fair or not, that’s the company people playing that game or posting Pepe the Frog keep. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/355 "2019-12-21T17:58:08Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > The point is the self-righteous incredulity of some in this thread (_cough_ including you _cough_) who absolutely refuse to believe that white supremacists have co-opted it, that it was remotely possible that these fine young soldiers might have either been some of them or knew about it and were using it knowing full well how some use it despite it being covered in the mainstream media - the first hits on Google for ‘white supremacist okay sign’ come from the NY Times, CNN, Esquire, Washington Post, AP, BBC, and NPR and the ADL deemed it a [Hate Symbol](https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture) - that it’s a [prank from 4chan](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/b/by/fark_bydHsSbHIWl_GgYdkrnaRaEg38M.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=inPk9YXNpC8TavJEbSEFDuWuqtg%3D) (so known for their subtlety), the flagellation of the armed forces as a paragon of virtue in spite of evidence to the contrary. > > We live in a racist as fuck country and in a time where the racist-in-chief has normalized expressing that racism in a variety of ways. It’s obvious that a lot of people do it. Sure, maybe not these fine, upstanding cadets, but the SHOCK and HORROR that people who are evidently a lot more knowledgeable than those cadets might consider (with ample evidence) that maybe that’s a stupid fucking thing to do with your fingers nowadays? Especially when on television representing the country in uniform? > > There’s ample evidence to be suspicious of their motives. And even if they aren’t racist shitbags, hopefully they figured out that whether it’s fair or not, that’s the company people playing that game or posting Pepe the Frog keep. You still don’t get it. There is nothing to indicate the circle game gesture has been adopted by White Supremacists. It is an entirely different gesture. When I see people flashing the circle game gesture, I immediately think it’s the circle game. If I see an “okay” gesture, I think it likely means “okay” unless the context or other evidence suggests otherwise. The cadets in the OP were not flashing “okay” gestures. They were “circle game” gestures. That, combined with the fact that I see that crap (circle game antics) on at least a weekly basis, makes it evident to me that the act in the OP was in fact the circle game. That isn’t " self-righteous incredulity". That is me taking all the facts and not jumping to conclusions. On the other hand there is you, who accused a Mexican American of being a White Supremacist despite the fact that she had a very sensible explanation. Which one of us is being unreasonable, do you think? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/356 "2019-12-21T18:04:10Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > [Here’s a mass shooter just playing the game](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/L/LM/fark_LM5zbPeB2GmEUvxktxtO_gZRVkA.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=0bKhGxHfHlz0Eg9q9RpX2a%2FuI%2F0%3D) > I’ve already addressed this picture. > > [Here’s someone playing the game while seated behind Kavanaugh.](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/b/bY/fark_bYXLJJ_OtmK8sU_oXTOVYNC-j8U.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=6ZyWNv5AL8flNXOdzPlEUDOtqyw%3D) > That’s an “okay” gesture used to communicate her gratitude to a staffer bringing her water. > [Do you think she would have gotten more points had she wore](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/O/OZ/fark_OZHDXcs2unTINPUpOhIoktAjxCI.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=6FpfuUlbK7kTAmVjox5bHUPbTKY%3D) > That’s the same woman resting her hand on her arm. I guess humans _are_ predisposed to find patterns where they don’t exist. Do you really think > this Mexican American woman, born in Mexico, with Jewish grandparents who survived the Holocaust, is a White Supremacist? Is that what you really think? Or are you just not thinking at all? That’s likely the issue. > a [rainbow wig](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TlBkWxyAmro/VdQUmVeD85I/AAAAAAAA6Jg/g9JGer6WXZE/s1600/RAINBOW%2BMAN%2BJOHN%2B316%2B%25281997%2529%2BRollen%2BStewart%2B6.jpg)? > That isn’t even close to an “OK” gesture or a circle game gesture. Are you going to complain about GI Joe’s racist kung-fu grip next? Anything remotely circular is racist? > > [Richard Spencer is notorious for his gamesmanship](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/w/wN/fark_wNXfF6sXF15F4HjMs61dZspCfmA.png?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=wA3QWZzTGSFAUnf4yn294OS1DdQ%3D) > That is indeed an okay gesture. Could be intended to mean WP. This _is_, afterall, the gesture which has been adopted by some White Supremacists. Unlike the circle game gesture which has not. > > [Junior High Schoolers add a very fun wave when they play the game!](https://assets.teenvogue.com/photos/5bfc4f3d33c0197abdc26860/master/w_1280%2Cc_limit/lede.jpg) > Very good. That is the circle gesture and they are playing the circle game. Do you find it hard to believe that a bunch of kids play a kid’s game? > > [Even notoriously right wing politicians in France are playing!](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6oBhy1WsAs5vgq?format=jpg&name=large) > Not a circle game gesture. That’s the OK gesture. As we said, some alt-right extremists use it too. So, maybe that’s what they’re doing. It’s possible. > > [Even protestors can play the game with one hand while carrying a flag that represents keeping America a white country with the other!](https://fark-usrimg-850.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/9/9z/fark_9zxeugBAFnGwjwpreL9EP0wpxWc.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=HBAYEKZHGUB4NAYQBVSQ&Expires=1577077200&Signature=2R%2BhK2vDn6YpTz91v8K5fJ8a8Yo%3D)That’s the OK gesture. It very likely means WP in this context, or he is expressing his approval for one hell of a White Power parade. Don’t know. I can easily accept that he’s flashing a WP sign because some neo-nazis use the OK gesture as a WP gesture. But what this definitely 100% is NOT is the circle game gesture. Can you tell the difference yet? > > [Well, okay!](https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1494694898798.jpg)That’s an okay gesture, not a circle game gesture. Noone is denying that the okay gesture has been adopted by some white supreacists. [This is a circle game gesture](https://www.google.com/search?q=made+you+look&client=ms-android-samsung-gn-rev1&prmd=ivmn&sxsrf=ACYBGNQo4sUvwOgAt7mN7mp96CvBaWn0lQ:1576944527610&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj59ZeTkMfmAhVkhuAKHT7XCkkQ_AUoAXoECA8QAQ&biw=412&bih=718&dpr=3.5#imgrc=9InTM15r4XSZpM) Racists are craven cowards who love to hide behind plausible deniability and those who would enable them by lending them cover. Well done. 👌 ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/357 "2019-12-21T18:36:52Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Racists are craven cowards who love to hide behind plausible deniability and those who would enable them by lending them cover. Well done. 👌 So you’re calling Zina Bash a liar? You refuse to believe her explanation? I tend to believe women (actually, most people in general) unless there is good evidence to the contrary. If she said Kavanagh raped her, would you call her a liar then as well? She is not a craven coward, and she doesn’t need to hide behind “plausible deniability” when the truth works perfectly well. Shame on you. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/358 "2019-12-21T18:43:26Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > … and the ADL deemed it a [Hate Symbol](https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture). Please go back an read your own cite. I actually cited the ADL earlier. It supports my position, not yours. They said that the “okay” gesture has been adopted by some White Supremacist. Yes. But they go on to talk about two _similar_ gestures that have been “mistaken” for WP symbols because of the hoax. They never claimed that either of those two similar gestures have been adopted by any WP groups. In their own words: Other “similar-seeming hand gestures have also been mistakenly assumed to have white supremacist connotations as a result of the “okay” hoax. One of these is the so-called “Circle Game…” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/359 "2019-12-21T18:59:05Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > So you’re calling Zina Bash a liar? You refuse to believe her explanation? I tend to believe women (actually, most people in general) unless there is good evidence to the contrary. If she said Kavanagh raped her, would you call her a liar then as well? She is not a craven coward, and she doesn’t need to hide behind “plausible deniability” when the truth works perfectly well. Shame on you. Some of them aren’t racists =/= all of them aren’t racists. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/360 "2019-12-21T19:06:36Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Please go back an read your own cite. I actually cited the ADL earlier. It supports my position, not yours. They said that the “okay” gesture has been adopted by some White Supremacist. Yes. But they go on to talk about two _similar_ gestures that have been “mistaken” for WP symbols because of the hoax. They never claimed that either of those two similar gestures have been adopted by any WP groups. In their own words: > Other “similar-seeming hand gestures have also been mistakenly assumed to have white supremacist connotations as a result of the “okay” hoax. One of these is the so-called “Circle Game…” The point is, racists are co-opting a popular meme, not the other way around. And people savvy enough to have figured one internet meme ought to be savvy enough to know it’s been co-opted by racists and should knock it the hell off. Any claim that says they were sophisticated enough to pick up one but not the other, strains credulity. Now, they might be trolling because it amuses them, but I don’t for a second buy that it’s perfectly innocent internet meme gesture this late in the “game”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895.md?page=19)