# What should be done in response to the White Power gesture being flashed on camera? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 15, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895 "2019-12-15T16:10:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/161 "2019-12-17T16:56:09Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Racist. > > It’s like anything else. How many people IRL do you know named Adolf Hitler? That’s aren’t white supremacists? Yet prior to oh say 1934 it was a perfectly normal name. If you met a guy at a bar with than name in 2019, what would you think? Would you give him the benefit of the doubt? How many people named Adolf changed their name after 1934? ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/162 "2019-12-17T17:06:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How many people named Adolf changed their name after 1934? I knew a WW2 vet whose first name was Adolf. He didn’t legally change it, but he went exclusively by a nickname. I have no stats of course, but I would imagine he was not alone in that. Other Adolfs probably started going by their middle name or something. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/163 "2019-12-17T17:09:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I think the “game” he meant was “getting people to freak out about the ok sign” and not the “made you look” game. Oh, okay. I must’ve gotten confused. The claim still doesn’t make sense to me, though. If people are trolling in the attempt to get the response they desire, I think the best way to deal with this nonsense is to give them the response they _don’t_ desire. We can learn a lot from moderated message boards. Don’t we ban trolls here? Yes, because we figured out a long time ago that is the most efficient and effective way of dealing with these jerks. Ignoring them just means our forums become littered with low-effort shitposts, and it becomes hard to separate sincere posters from disingenuous ones. I find it interesting that even among “it’s just a game” crowd, we can’t even get agreement on what kind of game is being played. And yet somehow it’s a wild and unreasonable to stretch to assume its being used in a racist manner. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/164 "2019-12-17T17:27:54Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Throughout the military, this is still known as “The Circle Game” and has nothing at all to do with white supremacy. Yes, grown-up soldiers still play The Circle Game. Replying without reading all 4 pages, but I’ve never played the circle game via national TV. You hold the circle below your waist, preferably close to your dick, so that when someone sees it you’re tacitly accusing them of staring at said dick. That’s why you get to hit them – because they’re gay. It’s obviously got some roots in homophobia, and I’m not saying we need to stop playing the circle game because of that, but I don’t know how you “play” the circle game by flashing the circle on TV. Who’s gay in that situation? The viewers? All of America? It just makes no sense, and I think it’s just convenient cover for trolls. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/165 "2019-12-17T17:46:13Z")
I haven’t been following this thread closely. I haven’t really been following the coverage closely - I read an article or two, and saw TV footage of the guy making an upside down OK sign on three separate occasions. The first thing to do is not to overreact, but to give the person the benefit of the doubt. Not because racism is acceptable, but because this is a fundamental principle of justice. The second thing to do is investigate whether this individual has promoted or condoned racism. Intention means everything, especially with regard to an ambiguous gesture. I understand, better than many, that these gestures are meant to be ambiguous. But to the vast majority of Canadians, OK means just that. Ambiguity does not by itself presume guilt. The third thing to do is to be rational and reasonable. If there are no issues uncovered, take this as a moment to educate. Make the person a military spokesman against racism. Show the tolerance all people deserve. Resist the urge to fire the guy because his name is in the media. Unless he has a long history of these stupid views, in which case this is reasonable after a fair and unbiased examination of the issue. What do I personally need to do? Avoid the word “outrage” which is rarely true. Trust the military will do the right thing, for reasons of fairness and self-interest. They probably will. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/166 "2019-12-17T17:58:46Z")
> [@Kovitlac](#): > > It only started getting infamous THIS YEAR. I never heard of it till maybe 6 months ago. I think it’s reasonable to not expect everyone to be so up-to-date on their What’s Currently Offensive list. > > Me, I don’t give two shits about what some nameless shmuck decided is offensive. If I want to use the OK sign the way the OK sign has been used for (as someone else said) 200 years? I’ll use it. Reappropriate that shit. You don’t just get to decide that a symbol means whatever you want it to mean, and now everyone else needs to find it offensive too or they’re terrorists :rolleyes: Yep, and progressives have to stop bombarding twitters everytime they get full of misplaced ire over a harmless symbol. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/167 "2019-12-17T18:03:05Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think Dr. Deth thinks they are doing it to troll, knowing it means white supremacy. But they don’t mean it-mean-it, so we should ignore it and hope it goes away. That argument makes no sense to me, but I think that’s the one he means. > > Bear\_Nenno thinks it was entirely an innocent game and that they weren’t thinking about race or the racist implications at all, they just want to troll people into looking like they are looking at a dick (which is itself a pretty problematic game, as the whole point is “I made you look gay, haha”) No, I dont. They have no idea is means “white supremacy” - mainly as it doesnt. It’s exactly as \*\*Bear\_Nenno \*\*says, a silly game played by new military people. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/168 "2019-12-17T18:05:07Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > … > > The question is not whether someone is offended by a hand gesture. The question is HOLY FUCK WE HAVE OFFICERS-IN-TRAINING IN THE US MILITARY PUBLICLY MAKING WHITE POWER HAND GESTURES! > > Yes, it should be investigated. I’d say there’s a very small chance that these guys were playing this circle game thing, because it makes no sense in this context, and it’s very likely that they were getting yuks by making white power hand gestures. But let’s investigate to find out. But we dont. And dont yell. And yes, the circle game is exactly what it is. and no investigation is called for. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/169 "2019-12-17T18:28:54Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Replying without reading all 4 pages, but I’ve never played the circle game via national TV. You hold the circle below your waist, preferably close to your dick, so that when someone sees it you’re tacitly accusing them of staring at said dick. That’s why you get to hit them – because they’re gay. Never heard of such a stupid thing. If that’s what these officers in training where doing, they should be reprimanded for that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/170 "2019-12-17T18:31:08Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Replying without reading all 4 pages, but I’ve never played the circle game via national TV. You hold the circle below your waist, preferably close to your dick, so that when someone sees it you’re tacitly accusing them of staring at said dick. That’s why you get to hit them – because they’re gay. > > It’s obviously got some roots in homophobia, and I’m not saying we need to stop playing the circle game because of that, but I don’t know how you “play” the circle game by flashing the circle on TV. Who’s gay in that situation? The viewers? All of America? It just makes no sense, and I think it’s just convenient cover for trolls. Again with the gay thing. How does that work when it’s “anywhere below your waist”? Could be to the side. Could be almost on the floor if you are sitting down. Doesn’t have to be over your dick. [Here](https://www.teepublic.com/sticker/2455537-mona-made-you-look) is how you play with people who are not with you. Did you click the link? Did you look at her fingers? If you did, I win ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/171 "2019-12-17T18:44:11Z")
> [@Kovitlac](#): > > It actually is? It’s the exist same scenario. If you think it’s stupid, congrats - you are the average person. I think you mean “exact,” and no, it’s not. You’re fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the complaint. It’s not that people suddenly decided that a previously innocuous hand gesture is racist, it’s that a bunch of racists decided to use a previously innocuous hand gesture as a way to signal their abhorrent beliefs. 99% of the time, this isn’t a problem, because context makes the intent behind the gesture obvious, and that intent is benign. In this particular case, the intent isn’t clear - the cadet is deliberately signalling something, but the message is unclear. It could be as simple as, “Ha ha, I’m making a reference to an immature game during this Very Serious Ceremony.” Or it could be support for a white ethnostate. It’s, admittedly, probably not the latter, but someone should look into it just to be sure, because white nationalists with access to military hardware and training is a very, very dangerous thing. And everyone saying, “We shouldn’t let white supremacists take over the meaning of this gesture,” are really, really missing the point. The issue isn’t who gets to “own” the meaning of this particular gesture, the point is that white supremacism represents an existential threat to lots and lots of people, and they can’t really afford to ignore potential warning signs that someone harbors violent racist ideology. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/172 "2019-12-17T18:51:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s exactly as \*\*Bear\_Nenno \*\*says, a silly game played by new military people. So explain why you think us assuming it’s just a game will make it “die out” like you claimed earlier. By what mechanism will this happen? Either they are playing a game innocently, not knowing there are mixed perceptions about the symbol. Are they are doing it with malicious intent because they _know_ there are mixed perceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/173 "2019-12-17T18:53:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Either they are playing a game innocently, not knowing there are mixed perceptions about the symbol. Are they are doing it with the intent to troll because they _know_ there are mixed perceptions. Neither one of those options are “because they are white nationalists” ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/174 "2019-12-17T18:58:40Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Neither one of those options are “because they are white nationalists” This will be the second time you have butt into a question I’ve directed at **DrDeth** , so that he can elaborate on something that makes zero sense to me. Can you please quit? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/175 "2019-12-17T18:58:56Z")
Neither do they exclude that possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/176 "2019-12-17T19:00:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This will be the second time you have butt into a question I’ve directed at **DrDeth** , so that he can elaborate on something that makes zero sense to me. Can you please quit? Thanks. It’s almost like he has an irresistible urge to explain things to certain groups of people. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/177 "2019-12-17T19:01:59Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This will be the second time you have butt into a question I’ve directed at **DrDeth** , so that he can elaborate on something that makes zero sense to me. Can you please quit? Thanks. Ok. ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/178 "2019-12-17T19:23:40Z")
This was the first I had heard of the ok symbol (which automatically triggers the eye phone emoji) to some meant “white power”. I had always understood that gesture was a fist pump to the chest followed by the “heil hitler” extended arm routine. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/179 "2019-12-17T19:25:42Z")
This may have been linked already, but [here’s a pretty good NY Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/us/ok-sign-white-power.html) about the appropriation of the OK sign. It’s probably paywalled for most, but here’s the key bit: > [@](#): > > **How did it become connected to “white power”?** > > It started in early 2017 as a hoax. Some users of 4chan, an anonymous and unrestricted online message board, began what they called “Operation O-KKK,” to see if they could trick the wider world — and especially liberals and the mainstream media — into believing that the innocuous gesture was actually a clandestine symbol of white power. > > \ > > The 4chan hoax succeeded all too well, and ceased being a hoax: Neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klansmen and other white nationalists began using the gesture in public to signal their presence and to spot potential sympathizers and recruits. For them, the letters formed by the hand were not O and K, but W and P, for “white power.” The article cites several examples, including Richard Spencer flashing the sign on Twitter. So, again I have no idea what the cadets and midshipmen do for fun when not being trained to kill people and destroy things. I’m sure some play the circle game, just as college kids have done for years. And I’m sure some of them are white supremacists. I just want to know which these guys are. The Army and Navy academies apparently want to know too, since they’ve started an investigation. Hopefully the results will be made know soon. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895/180 "2019-12-17T19:25:48Z")
> [@Mallard](#): > > I had always understood that gesture was a fist pump to the chest followed by the “heil hitler” extended arm routine. “Butbutbut… that used to be a perfectly innocent salute! Let’s not let Nazis take over the Nazi salute! Just keep on doing it, everyone!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-response-to-the-white-power-gesture-being-flashed-on-camera/844895.md?page=10)