# What should be done in the Medford School District/Teacher's Union Dispute? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640 "2014-02-18T18:29:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/81 "2014-02-21T16:00:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, they won’t be forced to improve. Businesses make money by maximizing income while minimizing costs. One approach to doing this is the 4-star restaurant approach: offer a premium product at a high price for the wealthiest or most driven customer. The other end of the spectrum holds Qwik-e-mart hot dogs: barely usable, nasty product at rock-bottom prices. > > Qwik-e-mart hot dogs continue to be sold, because there’s a market for them among people too poor or insufficiently motivated to buy better food. There will certainly be a market for lousy schools. They’ll be attended by students whose parents don’t know how to navigate the system, or who can’t be bothered to navigate the system. > > And that’s setting aside such confounding factors as deceptive advertising (hellOOOO, Phoenix University!) that can persuade people to make suboptimal educational choices for their children. > > I’m not a Marxist. I think the free market does a lot of stuff well. But I’m also not an ideological free-market zealot. I can recognize that it’s not always the answer to every problem. Education is one of those problems poorly solved by the free market. There are many segments of the market from 4 star dining to 7-11 hotdogs, but what they all have in common is they make their customers happy or they go out of business. McDonalds has horrible hamburgers but their food is ambrosial compared to what is served in the typical school cafeteria. The last time I had lunch with my son in his cafeteria the hamburger they served me should have been a hate crime. In Paris they have really expensive food except for lunch. The reason is that according to French law every business must provide their employees with a voucher of a certain worth that they can use to buy lunch. Thus Paris is swimming with places you can buy a cheap lunch and the quality is really high because the competition is fierce. If you give parents a voucher that can only be used for schools that takes away the temptation any parent might have to under invest in their kids education. Sweden gives every parent a voucher and now almost 25% of secondary students in Sweden go to private schools. As a result of this law, math and reading scores have improved by a statisically significant amount, likelihood to go to college has improved, and total schooling has gone up as well. ([pdf)](http://www.ifau.se/Upload/pdf/se/2012/wp12-19-Independent-schools-and-long-run-educational-outcomes.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/82 "2014-02-21T16:08:24Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That doesn’t mean privatization is the right solution. Then we should throw up are hands and tell the students trapped in failing schools that is what they get for being born black and poor? I don’t know how to run a great school, maybe no one does currently. The only solution is to use trial and error and keep trying things until we find out what works. Right now we have one model, the government monopoly, and we know if is an expensive failure to those who need it most. If we let thousands of entrepreneurs try to solve the problem, a couple of those people might have the solution. Otherwise we can just keep watching strikes over whether teachers should pay and extra 10 of their retirement costs while another generation slips into poverty. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/83 "2014-02-21T16:17:46Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Then we should throw up are hands and tell the students trapped in failing schools that is what they get for being born black and poor? No. What you just did is called a false dilemma. We have more options than just “privatize” or “do nothing.” > [@](#): > > I don’t know how to run a great school, maybe no one does currently. The only solution is to use trial and error and keep trying things until we find out what works. Right now we have one model, the government monopoly, and we know if is an expensive failure to those who need it most. If we let thousands of entrepreneurs try to solve the problem, a couple of those people might have the solution. Otherwise we can just keep watching strikes over whether teachers should pay and extra 10 of their retirement costs while another generation slips into poverty. One of those third solutions that seems to have potential for letting entrepeneurs try things without the hazards of total privatization is charter schools. They’ve been up and running in several districts for a while and seem to be working out. > **[Charter school](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school)** > > A charter school is a school that receives government funding but operates independently of the established state school system in which it is located. It is independent in the sense that it operates according to the basic principle of autonomy for accountability, that it is freed from the rules but accountable for results. > Charter schools are publicly funded schools that operate independently from their local district. Charter schools are often operated and maintained by a charter management... ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/84 "2014-02-21T16:19:42Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > One error I tend to see in these threads is linking all public employees together in regards to “right to strike” and public safety. While there may be a logic to preventing first responders from striking, I don’t think teachers and DMV employees are crucial to life and death. Yep - also, you can have a union without the right to strike. Usually that means mandatory arbitration instead, or some kind of alternative process. Most public safety-related unions have it, and also some private ones, such as railroads and airlines, which are covered by the Railway Labor Act instead of the National Labor Relations Act. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/85 "2014-02-21T16:22:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not sure you’ve given clear objections to what I’ve said. Moreover, my understanding is that the nations with the best-performing public schools actually have significantly **fewer** kids in private schools than the US does (due in large part to the “white flight” that occurred in response to integration during the seventies). It’s hard to compare other nations. There aren’t enough comparable First World nations, and the US is in a sort of unique situation with poverty being correlated with somewhat-segregated ethnic groups. > [@](#): > > Suggesting an expansion of private schools seems to be driven more by ideology than by facts on the ground. This is true, at least in my case. (To the extent that you call a general notion that competition as a motivator tends to be a plus on balance an ideology.) > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Just read this again - you realize that this doesn’t work in a competition model, right? What could the admins of competing schools possibly do about it? I couldn’t say for sure, not being a school admin myself. But assuming that these admins do anything at all, it stands to reason that they can do it better or worse, and that if they faced competitive consequences from failure they would be more motivated to do it better. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/86 "2014-02-21T16:34:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I couldn’t say for sure, not being a school admin myself. But you said it. > [@](#): > > But assuming that these admins do anything at all, it stands to reason that they can do it better or worse, and that if they faced competitive consequences from failure they would be more motivated to do it better. That doesn’t answer the question at all. How would a private system avoid dropping the hard cases - those who have lagged behind, discipline problems, kids with special needs, or just plain dumb kids - in order to save money? When those kids cost more than they are paying in tuition, or are pulling down test scores and hurting the school’s reputation, why would a private school keep them around? What possible incentive is there? And again, can you think of ANY way an admin might be able or willing to make sure other schools keep them? How does one force competitors to do something they don’t want to do? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/87 "2014-02-21T16:41:58Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But you said it. No, I didn’t. I said it would be possible to do something. Then you asked for specifics. That’s what I can’t say. > [@](#): > > How would a private system avoid dropping the hard cases - those who have lagged behind, discipline problems, kids with special needs, or just plain dumb kids - in order to save money? When those kids cost more than they are paying in tuition, or are pulling down test scores and hurting the school’s reputation, why would a private school keep them around? What possible incentive is there? > > And again, can you think of ANY way an admin might be able or willing to make sure other schools keep them? How does one force competitors to do something they don’t want to do? The same questions would apply to any business. What stops any business from dropping difficult customers? Probably the fact that those customers will complain about them to other people, who might not see them as difficult, and/or other people will worry that maybe the business will one day decide that they’re difficult too, just at the wrong time. I’m not saying that no kid would ever be expelled. But I think what you’re saying is exagerated. There are actually private schools that specialize in difficult kids (though of wealthier parents, of course). I don’t see this as a huge problem. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/88 "2014-02-21T16:55:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No, I didn’t. > > I said it would be possible to do something. Then you asked for specifics. That’s what I can’t say. If you can’t even think of something it might be possible to do, that’s mighty weak. > [@](#): > > The same questions would apply to any business. What stops any business from dropping difficult customers? > > Probably the fact that those customers will complain about them to other people, who might not see them as difficult, and/or other people will worry that maybe the business will one day decide that they’re difficult too, just at the wrong time. And yet, difficult customers are dropped all the time. More precisely, companies only serve customers that will make them money. A good analogy is health insurance. Millions of people couldn’t get any because the companies predicted they’d cost more than they brought in. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying that no kid would ever be expelled. But I think what you’re saying is exagerated. Why? Why would a profit-motivated school care? > [@](#): > > There are actually private schools that specialize in difficult kids (though of wealthier parents, of course). I don’t see this as a huge problem. Actually, many aren’t just for the wealthy–public schools often pay their tuition because it’s cheaper or easier than trying to educate them. Which is both a point for me and for you. But at least you acknowledge that only rich “difficult” kids would get anything out of your plan. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/89 "2014-02-21T16:59:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > A good analogy is health insurance. Millions of people couldn’t get any because the companies predicted they’d cost more than they brought in. Insurance is a different animal. The entire principle of insurance is spreading the risk to cover unpredictable costs. To the extent that costs are predictable, they are not insurable. It’s not comparable to other businesses. > [@](#): > > Actually, many aren’t just for the wealthy–public schools often pay their tuition because it’s cheaper or easier than trying to educate them. Which is both a point for me and for you. But at least you acknowledge that only rich “difficult” kids would get anything out of your plan. Nowadays private schools in general are aimed only at rich people. Everyone pays taxes that support the public schools and tuition is expensive. We’re discussing a theoretical situation in which the government subsidies/taxes were redirected. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/90 "2014-02-21T18:17:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Insurance is a different animal. The entire principle of insurance is spreading the risk to cover unpredictable costs. To the extent that costs are predictable, they are not insurable. > > It’s not comparable to other businesses. Sure it is. The risk of admitting a hard-to-teach kid, whose costs might exceed the tuition he pays, may prompt a school to reject him. This already happens in private schools today. Many don’t admit the hard cases or the special needs kids. They just say no. > [@](#): > > Nowadays private schools in general are aimed only at rich people. Everyone pays taxes that support the public schools and tuition is expensive. > > We’re discussing a theoretical situation in which the government subsidies/taxes were redirected. So what? How’s that any different? They’re still private schools. They’d still have every incentive only to admit the good students. You have yet to explain why that’s not true. Or are you suggesting that…there would be some kind of government regulation of these private schools to prevent that? Uh-oh. You don’t think that the taxpayers, seeing their hard-earned money being sent to these private schools, wouldn’t want some rules and regulations to go with it? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/91 "2014-02-21T19:43:40Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sure it is. > > The risk of admitting a hard-to-teach kid, whose costs might exceed the tuition he pays, may prompt a school to reject him. > > This already happens in private schools today. Many don’t admit the hard cases or the special needs kids. They just say no. I thought we’re already past this point. There are special schools for special needs kids and the like. The other schools are disinclined to admit them. > [@](#): > > So what? How’s that any different? They’re still private schools. They’d still have every incentive only to admit the good students. You have yet to explain why that’s not true. What I was saying was that if there was government subsidies or vouchers or whatever, then private schools - including those which cater to troubled or difficult kids - would be available to a broader income spectrum than is currently the case. I was responding to your specific point about only rich kids having the option. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/92 "2014-02-21T19:51:00Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Or are you suggesting that…there would be some kind of government regulation of these private schools to prevent that? Uh-oh. > > You don’t think that the taxpayers, seeing their hard-earned money being sent to these private schools, wouldn’t want some rules and regulations to go with it? I know this wasn’t in response to me, but I have no problem with minimal government regulation of voucher schools. There are degrees of difference between the current government monopoly and the strawman situation of absolutely no oversight of institutions that would get taxpayer vouchers. And yes, some private schools would pick and choose and take only the cream of the crop. Others would spring up to take those special needs kids or problem children. Does that mean that there would be unequal education? Of course. But I see no problem in allowing parents and students who care about their education to attend schools that allow them to thrive. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/93 "2014-02-21T20:15:24Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If you give parents a voucher that can only be used for schools that takes away the temptation any parent might have to under invest in their kids education. Sweden gives every parent a voucher and now almost 25% of secondary students in Sweden go to private schools. As a result of this law, math and reading scores have improved by a statisically significant amount, likelihood to go to college has improved, and total schooling has gone up as well. ([pdf)](http://www.ifau.se/Upload/pdf/se/2012/wp12-19-Independent-schools-and-long-run-educational-outcomes.pdf) I’d be happy to look at your cite. But last time I waded through one of your cites, I found it to be flawed on several different levels (check out post 48)–and when I went to a fair amount of work to cross-reference various stats to show how it was flawed, you ignored my response. Would you mind addressing post 48 first, before asking me to evaluate another citation? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/94 "2014-02-21T20:17:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I thought we’re already past this point. There are special schools for special needs kids and the like. The other schools are disinclined to admit them. That doesn’t put us past it at all! Those schools cost money too. Most tuition is paid for by a third party (the government). A few parents of kids with special needs are lucky enough to be rich and pay their own way, but not most. Yes, the other schools are disinclined to admit them. That’s my point. What happens to these kids in your private system? Do they still get government tuition? And we haven’t even touched on the fact that the fundamental principle of teaching kids with special needs today is INCLUSION, which means you don’t just ship them off to special school isolated from everyone else. > [@](#): > > What I was saying was that if there was government subsidies or vouchers or whatever, then private schools - including those which cater to troubled or difficult kids - would be available to a broader income spectrum than is currently the case. I was responding to your specific point about only rich kids having the option. But why would they? Would the vouchers come with more money than private tuition? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/95 "2014-02-21T20:21:37Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I know this wasn’t in response to me, but I have no problem with minimal government regulation of voucher schools. There are degrees of difference between the current government monopoly and the strawman situation of absolutely no oversight of institutions that would get taxpayer vouchers. Are you a conservative? If so, then you know that once the government gets it hands on something, it will only regulate it more and more–ESPECIALLY if our tax money is going to the schools. Parents will demand it, in fact. > [@](#): > > And yes, some private schools would pick and choose and take only the cream of the crop. Others would spring up to take those special needs kids or problem children. Does that mean that there would be unequal education? Of course. So then we’re right back where we started. Great. > [@](#): > > But I see no problem in allowing parents and students who care about their education to attend schools that allow them to thrive. Sure, if you arrogantly assume that the only reason kids fail is their parents just don’t care. Which is not only arrogant, and inaccurate, it’s a problem we don’t need to create private schools to fix, is it? You’re basically admitting here the the kids we want to help the most won’t be helped anyway. (And does that explain kids with special needs too? Or just the poor ones?) Back to square one. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/96 "2014-02-21T20:30:09Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But I see no problem in allowing parents and students who care about their education to attend schools that allow them to thrive. I’d like to be clear: do you mean that the benefits of such a system outweigh the drawbacks, or that you literally see no drawbacks? Because here’s one drawback: when the most academically-minded families are removed from a school, the school is left with the least academically-minded families, and this is a serious drawback for the students left in the school. Such students are penalized for not having parents who are both willing and able to be effectively involved in their schooling. Do you disagree that that would happen? Do you disagree that that’s a bad thing? Or do you agree that that’s a bad thing that would happen, but think that the benefits of the proposal outweigh this drawback? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/97 "2014-02-21T20:34:50Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > A system that fails children whose parents are not involved or don’t know how to work the system is what we have now. 45% of black students drop out before high school graduation. Of the black students that do graduate 11% are proficient in math, and 13% are proficient in reading. If you look at test scores in low poverty school they are as good as scores in countries like Finland and Japan, but test scores in high poverty schools are abysmal. Heh–you might have gotten that from stats I’ve posted before. > [@](#): > > Keeping the current system intact for the benefit of poor children is like keeping KFC open for the benefit of chickens. Cute quote, but not a good analogy. I’m not talking about keeping the current system intact; rather, I’m talking about shifting the focus for reform to the part of the system where you yourself point out it should be. Namely, we need to be focusing on poverty. When children have their basic needs met–that is, they live in low-crime neighborhood in adequate housing and are well-fed with healthful foods–they thrive in school. When kids are kept awake by sirens, experience PTSD from a very young age, and subsist on a terrible diet that involves significant food insecurity, their academic performance suffers. Your KFC analogy doesn’t work, but here’s a better one: blaming schools for the performance of poor kids is like blaming military doctors for all the limbs their patients lose. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/98 "2014-02-21T21:21:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Your KFC analogy doesn’t work, but here’s a better one: blaming schools for the performance of poor kids is like blaming military doctors for all the limbs their patients lose. Which is fine, providing you are willing to forego giving credit to schools for the performance of kids with involved parents. If the schools are not to blame for the failures, then they can’t claim credit for the successes. > [@](#): > > When children have their basic needs met–that is, they live in low-crime neighborhood in adequate housing and are well-fed with healthful foods–they thrive in school. When kids are kept awake by sirens, experience PTSD from a very young age, and subsist on a terrible diet that involves significant food insecurity, their academic performance suffers. The problem being that children who live in such an environment do so because their parents act responsibly, not only towards their children’s education, but in the other areas of their lives as well. Their children live in low-crime areas because their parents don’t rob liquor stores or deal drugs. They eat a healthy diet because somebody in their house cooks a dinner instead of sending them to McDonald’s six days a week. And they don’t get kept awake by sirens because their mothers acquired a high school diploma, a marriage certificate, and a twentieth birthday before she gave birth to them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/99 "2014-02-21T21:30:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Namely, we need to be focusing on poverty. When children have their basic needs met–that is, they live in low-crime neighborhood in adequate housing and are well-fed with healthful foods–they thrive in school. When kids are kept awake by sirens, experience PTSD from a very young age, and subsist on a terrible diet that involves significant food insecurity, their academic performance suffers. How do we do that because the way we’ve done it for nearly 50 years hasn’t worked. Continuing to piss public money away on some of these inner city schools has not worked. Public assistance has not kept down the crime rate and sirens in these neighborhoods. Whatever the solution for that is outside the education debate. My proposal is to let those parents and children who are economically trapped in these areas at least get to better schools so that these children don’t grow up and be forced to live in the same shithole. Your way seems to be devotion to these failed policies so much so that we can’t dare allow the best and brightest the chance to succeed or else the rest are left behind. I’m not “giving up” on these people, but I damn sure wouldn’t force people to stay in this squalor for the sake of the status quo. **Shodan** is right as well. It’s largely a moral issue that government can’t control. How much money do we continue to give to people who will destroy their communities and fail to instill proper values in their children? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/100 "2014-02-22T01:32:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The problem being that children who live in such an environment do so because their parents act responsibly, not only towards their children’s education, but in the other areas of their lives as well. Their children live in low-crime areas because their parents don’t rob liquor stores or deal drugs. They eat a healthy diet because somebody in their house cooks a dinner instead of sending them to McDonald’s six days a week. And they don’t get kept awake by sirens because their mothers acquired a high school diploma, a marriage certificate, and a twentieth birthday before she gave birth to them. Wow, you’ve got all the problems of people you don’t even know figured out! Your arrogance is dripping off you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640.md?page=6)