# What should be done in the Medford School District/Teacher's Union Dispute? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640 "2014-02-18T18:29:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/141 "2014-03-01T17:55:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Uh, no. Uh, yes. > [@](#): > > **Shodan** , I assume that before you’d contradict me on something like this, you’d do your own research. Did you find something that contradicts what I said? Or were you talking out your ass? I was pointing out that if you give a student extra time, more retries, a scribe, or the other accommodations, that makes it an alternative test and **lance armstrong** ’s point remains. Your own post, in other words, is contradictory. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/142 "2014-03-01T21:06:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Uh, yes.I was pointing out that if you give a student extra time, more retries, a scribe, or the other accommodations, that makes it an alternative test and **lance armstrong** ’s point remains. Your own post, in other words, is contradictory. Here’s what happened: 1 crucilbe’s said that the school was getting shut down because their test scores were lower than average. 2 lance said that made no sense, because special ed kids took an alternative test. 3 I said his objection was wrong, since the test that most EC kids take isn’t alternative, is just the regular test with accommodations, and therefore is scored just like the test other kids without accommodations take. Do you disagree with my summary? Do you think that lance’s objection holds somehow, and if so, how? Or are you arguing some other point? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/143 "2014-03-01T21:09:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > So now you ignore polls that teachers are well respected in the United States, demonstrating you have have no intellectual honesty about this discussion. You’re just a bitter teacher that has a really easy job that very low intelligence housewife type women could do and you’re mad you don’t make as much as a lawyer. End of story with you. Bwahahahaha! If nothing else, exposing your misogyny and utter ignorance of what teaching involves has got to be good for something. You may as well accuse me of being a tree frog. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/144 "2014-03-01T21:42:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I said his objection was wrong, since the test that most EC kids take isn’t alternative, is just the regular test with accommodations, and therefore is scored just like the test other kids without accommodations take. A test with accommodations _is_ an alternative test. It’s not scored just like the other test - those who take it get special accommodations, like extra time or multiple retries. A test on which you get to keep your highest score of multiple tries is not being scored the same as a test where you only get one shot. Therefore it is not the same test. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/145 "2014-03-02T00:06:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A test with accommodations _is_ an alternative test. It’s not scored just like the other test - those who take it get special accommodations, like extra time or multiple retries. > > A test on which you get to keep your highest score of multiple tries is not being scored the same as a test where you only get one shot. Therefore it is not the same test. > > Regards, > Shodan First, I am unaware of any accommodation in which the student gets more tries than other students. Multiple sessions means you take the same test over several days. Second, look at post 118. Does your semantic point somehow make his objection valid? ---
**Author:** ![akwally1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akwally1/32/3220_2.png) [@akwally1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akwally1)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/146 "2014-03-02T00:48:51Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You’re just a bitter teacher that has a really easy job that very low intelligence housewife type women could do and you’re mad you don’t make as much as a lawyer. End of story with you. If this is a serious comment, then you have just shown that you aren’t even capable of discussing this subject reasonably. Teaching is a REALLY EASY job? Tell that to my wife who spent three and a half hours today (Saturday) grading papers and emailing parents. Tell that to the parents in her class who, in some cases, begged to have their kids in her class because she’s so exceptional. I know there are plenty of teachers out there who are worthless, just as in any profession, but to say that ANYONE (very low intelligence housewives? Really?) can be a good teacher is insulting. Mark ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/147 "2014-03-02T01:15:06Z")
> [@akwally1](#): > > If this is a serious comment, then you have just shown that you aren’t even capable of discussing this subject reasonably. I think that about sums it up. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/148 "2014-03-02T02:45:15Z")
> [@akwally1](#): > > If this is a serious comment, then you have just shown that you aren’t even capable of discussing this subject reasonably. > > Teaching is a REALLY EASY job? Tell that to my wife who spent three and a half hours today (Saturday) grading papers and emailing parents. Tell that to the parents in her class who, in some cases, begged to have their kids in her class because she’s so exceptional. > > I know there are plenty of teachers out there who are worthless, just as in any profession, but to say that ANYONE (very low intelligence housewives? Really?) can be a good teacher is insulting. > > Mark Yeah I know lots of people who work more than they have to because they give a shit. That’s their prerogative. Teaching is like most government jobs, if you’re lazy and have even 1/10th of a clue about how the system works you can easily structure the job so that you at worst have to work 40 hours. You’d be doing your minimal work very inefficiently to actually even work a full 40 hours. I’ve seen a science teacher who taught 7th, 8th, and 9th grade science in the following manner: Each grade had an identical curriculum, as did honors and regular courses he taught. He taught in a 7/period a day school so a lot of classes were taught by him each year. I do mean identical, if you had him 3 years in a row you took the same course 3 years in a row. Each week he covered a new topic. On the first day he would lecture and the students had to listen. He lectured from slides on an overhead he had used for 10+ years. On the second day he handed out the slides he had lectured from and required the students to copy them into their own hand. On the 3rd day there was an activity specific to that week’s topic but again, identical for all grades he taught and he had done the same activities for 10+ years. The 4th day was a ‘study’ day and the 5th day you took a test on the week’s topic. He did this each week of the year, except one week was a frog dissection week. The tests were identical year to year. All tests/slides were photocopied en massed and he’d been working from the same master for 10+ years. That guy certainly must have worked the first year or so developing those plans, but he obviously hadn’t worked in 10+ years by the time I rolled through. Well, I take that back, he did work in that he came to class, read the same lectures he had read 10+ years worth of times and administered identical tests each year. And he obviously graded (although he offloaded grading to students as much as possible.) So while he may have had a job, I can bet any amount of money you want this guy wasn’t working extra hours or over his allotted 40 hours a week. What would he be working on? Lesson plans? No, he did that 10 years ago. Grading papers? He baked in time to do that during his instructional time, like every Tuesday when you had to hand copy his slides as busy work (and you were graded on turning the handwritten copies in so you couldn’t just not do that) or every Thursday when he just ran a study hall. I had an art teacher once who was the HS men’s basketball coach. He literally taught us how to fold construction paper into a cube one day and I believe once gave us an assignment where you had a really large piece of white construction paper and you had to 100% fill it with colors using colored pencils (HS art, not grade school.) Other than that his class was the one where you got to listen to the radio for the whole period (as that was what he was doing), or goof off when he fell asleep (he was massively obese and later died of a massive heart attack after he retired and I’d say about half my classes with him he was asleep in his chair “watching” the class.) You can certainly slack off in the private sector as well, but teaching attracts people like that. Hard working teachers are the exception to the rule, not the norm. If they were hard working and smart they wouldn’t be teachers in the first place aside from the ultra-small minority that genuinely believe in what they are doing. Most of them are just people who were not smart enough to go into a STEM field but wanted summers off and fairly decent job prospects. In some districts summers off aren’t really as much of a thing anymore (I think teachers around here actually work 11 months/year) but I doubt most college kids actually know much about that going into it. ---
**Author:** ![akwally1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akwally1/32/3220_2.png) [@akwally1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akwally1)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/149 "2014-03-02T03:05:57Z")
> [@akwally1](#): > > If this is a serious comment, then you have just shown that you aren’t even capable of discussing this subject reasonably. I stand by this comment. To me, you are literally incapable of discussing this rationally because you seem to think teaching is so easy that a very low intelligence woman can do it. So reply what you’d like, but I see no need to discuss something with someone who obviously has no knowledge of what being a good teacher means. Mark ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/150 "2014-03-02T03:15:24Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You can certainly slack off in the private sector as well, but teaching attracts people like that. Hard working teachers are the exception to the rule, not the norm. If they were hard working and smart they wouldn’t be teachers in the first place aside from the ultra-small minority that genuinely believe in what they are doing. Cite? When I worked in the for-profit sector, I saw a lot more, and worse, incompetence than I’ve seen in the education sector. Of course I wouldn’t dream of treating my own anecdotal experience as something universal. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/151 "2014-03-02T11:41:57Z")
> [@](#): > > So now you ignore polls that teachers are well respected in the United States, demonstrating you have have no intellectual honesty about this discussion. You’re just a bitter teacher that has a really easy job that very low intelligence housewife type women could do and you’re mad you don’t make as much as a lawyer. yes, you demonstrate exactly how well-respected teachers are by your posts. nice job. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/152 "2014-03-02T16:50:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Cite? When I worked in the for-profit sector, I saw a lot more, and worse, incompetence than I’ve seen in the education sector. Of course I wouldn’t dream of treating my own anecdotal experience as something universal. I wouldn’t treat anecdotal experience as something universal either. But since we can see from private school pay scales that teaching is not a high value job in the free market, and because education is routinely shown to be one of the easiest majors in undergraduate degrees I think that’s a pretty good representation of the level of difficulty or value of teaching. I don’t have any hard data on whether or not teachers “work hard” but I’d be really happy to see some from you, since so far all I ever hear from teachers as evidence that it’s a hard job is teachers giving _their_ anecdotal personal stories about _oh how hard we work_ or stories about _oh how hard my wife works preparing lesson plans_, which is just anecdote. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/153 "2014-03-03T01:16:33Z")
I’m not going to spend too long on your request, of course, since you’ve made it clear that you think teachers are highly respected, AND that it’s a job that even a stupid WOMAN can do, and I’m not exactly filled with awe at your grasp of the issues therefore. But five seconds of googling followed by thirty seconds of following sources leads me [to this research](http://www.scholastic.com/primarysources/pdfs/Gates2012_full.pdf), showing that teacher workdays are on average 10 hours, 40 minutes long. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640/154 "2014-03-03T01:51:59Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I wouldn’t treat anecdotal experience as something universal either. But since we can see from private school pay scales that teaching is not a high value job in the free market, and because education is routinely shown to be one of the easiest majors in undergraduate degrees I think that’s a pretty good representation of the level of difficulty or value of teaching. I don’t have any hard data on whether or not teachers “work hard” but I’d be really happy to see some from you, since so far all I ever hear from teachers as evidence that it’s a hard job is teachers giving _their_ anecdotal personal stories about _oh how hard we work_ or stories about _oh how hard my wife works preparing lesson plans_, which is just anecdote. I have pointed out to you, any number of times, including in this thread, that significant persistent teacher vacancies exist in many places. You point at private schools-a different market-to suggest teaching has no value. But in the actual market at play, persistent shortages suggest that the market clearing price has not been reached. However hard the job is or should be, there are not enough people willing and able to do it at current wages. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-be-done-in-the-medford-school-district-teachers-union-dispute/681640.md?page=7)