What should I carry (handgun) and why?

In My Humble Opinion
41

[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist]
If you do have to use it, which is the point of carrying after all, you’re looking at a much rougher road in court. Getting a permit isn’t that big of a deal and the carry classes often keep you updated on new laws or court decisions, which can be well worth your time.

If (or “back when”) it was nearly impossible to get a permit, that’d be a different story. $200 and 5 hours is all it took ($100 and a 4 hour class + $100 and an hour at the Sheriffs office getting the paperwork filled out). Even considering that my name is on their list, and every cop that runs my plate is notified that I might be armed, it’s just not worth the risk.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, that makes more sense.

Certainly, we know there are non law-abiding citizens who break the conceal law. I always figured there must be plenty of people carrying who are (otherwise) law-abiding citizens.

42

Trunk, would it make more sense if I pointed out that many of us live in “Shall Issue” states, where getting a permit is barely more work than getting a drivers license (more expensive, but not more difficult)? Unlike Maryland, I don’t have to show any cause that I need one, they have to find a reason that I shouldn’t have it. Felony conviction (for carrying a concealed weapon, for instance) would do it.

If (and when) I lived in places where I couldn’t get a permit, then I had to decide if I was concerned for my life to the point that I’d consider violating laws. But when the laws are in place to allow you to carry legally, why not?

Second amendment, IMHO, doesn’t apply to concealed carry. Open carry is protected, but open carry can be a pain in other ways.

On preview, I see that this is probably moot, but I put a lot of work into it and I’m going to post it anyway!

43

[QUOTE=Turek]
This sounds to me like a very thinly veiled attempt to spark an argument about concealed carry licenses. I would request, Sgt Schwartz, that you not answer it and allow this person to start their own thread regarding this debate if he so chooses.
[/QUOTE]

When Sgt Schwarz included “Also, on a related note, why should I not carry?” in the OP, he declared the “veil” irrelevant. But I’m not here to ask why he wants to carry.

We’ve had Concealed Carry here in Texas since Our Last Governor rode the issue into office. The required class & a bit of target practice would not suffice to make me a competent gun owner. (Not that I want a gun, anyway.) I believe Tranquilis emphasized that maximum training is needed.

But Sgt Schwartz is apparently no gun virgin. Neither is he an idiot who’d consider carrying without a license (as has been suggested).

So, continue with your discussion. I know gun aficionados, sports fanatics, computer nerds & even Harry Potter fans. Whatever floats your boat!

44

[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train]
Somebody already mentioned the CZ-75 and derivatives, which are great guns (the EAA Witness is probably the best of the bunch, save perhaps for the extremely pricey Sphinx 3000), but you might also check out the Walther P99 and the H&K P2000, both of which have replacable backstraps to fit to your hand and are otherwise excellent pistols. The Glock also has a pretty compact grip, but I personally don’t like the grip angle and am otherwise unimpressed with its ergonomics (though I’ll admit it is durable and reliable) so I don’t recommend it.
[/QUOTE]

One neat trick about the Witness is that you can change calibers very easily; they make slides for a whole range of ammunition, from .22 all the way up to 10mm Auto. I’m told that they’re slightly larger than most CZ-75s, though, in order to allow that; what’s your experience with it?

45

[QUOTE=Trunk]
Why is it any more “careless and thoughtless” to carry without a permit?

Why is it “just plain fucking stupid unless you’re under a credible threat” to carry without a permit, but it’s not plain fucking stupid to carry with a permit?

Is there something about getting the permit that confers magical powers to the permit bearer?
[/quote]
Where the law allows permitted concealed carry, obtaining the proper certification indicates that you’ve taken at least some consideration. No, it doesn’t confer “magical powers”, but it does indicate that the bearer has at least made the nominal effort of being both in conformance with legal strictures, and has at least spent some minimal amount of effort thinking about the responsibilities and consequences. Most states that have “shall issue” laws require a training or education course, and many have (very reasonable) specifications on how and where you may carry a firearm.

Ignoring these and tucking a gun into your wasteband is highly indicative of someone whose knowledge and experience with firearms and defensive use thereof comes from Joel Silver-produced movies. Using a gun in a real combat situation is dramatically different from anything you see Bruce Willis doing as he charges through plate glass windows and climbs in the ductwork. Under combat stress situations, accuracy and judgement are highly degraded, and if you haven’t trained for this, the odds are that you are going to make bad decisions. The belief that sticking a gun in your belt is somehow going to make you safe, or is in any way responsible, mature, or well-considered is obtuse to an extreme; carrying a gun in public should require training under realistic conditions and regular refresher practice. And if you’re going to put that effort into it, getting a permit–again, where the state laws allow–is scarcely an effort.

In any case, there is no reasonable argument for not getting a permit in states where advocates of permitted concealed carry have toiled for the passage of such laws, and doing so merely makes all gun owners look like irresponsible swats who care nothing for the law even when it favors them. And if you are found carrying an unpermitted firearm, you’ll likely suffer significant consequences. The prosecutor isn’t going to care that you didn’t start a fight, or weren’t responsible for the car accident, or didn’t indent to walk out without paying; the fact that you’re illegally carrying a gun is a crime in and of itself, and if you are involved in some kind of violent conflict–even if not by your own volition–carrying a gun may well compound your sentence if you are found culpable. I can’t say that I’d really have much sympathy in that case, either.

[QUOTE=Trunk]
And, yes. . .my French BIL is familiar with the laws. He carries a gun in case he needs it, and isn’t worried about getting caught with it.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not intimately familiar with France’s gun laws other than a very general knowledge of the (fairly stringent) restrictions on what you can own and how it may be transported, but anyone who “isn’t worried about getting caught” clearly hasn’t thought through even the consequences of carrying the arm, much less being put to use. If he has a qualified reason to believe that his life may be threatened then I can see an ethical argument for carrying despite what the law may say (although that begs the question of why he would enter such a circumstance volunteeraly), but the fact that he’s not worried about the consequences and carrying a gun, in your own words, “makes him feel good” stories me that he lacks a sense of responsibility and forethought on the issue, and in any real situation would likely be as much a threat to bystanders and possibly himself as to any hypothetical assailants.

[QUOTE=MrJackboots]
One neat trick about the Witness is that you can change calibers very easily; they make slides for a whole range of ammunition, from .22 all the way up to 10mm Auto. I’m told that they’re slightly larger than most CZ-75s, though, in order to allow that; what’s your experience with it?
[/QUOTE]
I fired a couple of Tanfoglios back before they were imported under the EAA Witness label, and have handled probably half a dozen different Witness models since. They all struck me as high quality handguns with good pointing characteristics, and the ones I fired were at least as accurate as I was then capable of, but rather heavy (being steel framed) for concealed carry.

Stranger

46

Straw-man much, Stranger?

I’m talking about (supposedly) responsible people carrying concealed weapons.

You’re acting like anyone who doesn’t get a permit is just sticking it in his waist-band and walking around like an action hero, and anyone who does get a permit, is a sane, law-abiding citizen.

As to the BIL, of course carrying a gun “makes him feel good”. I didn’t say it makes him feel like a “big swinging dick”. It makes him feel safe when he’s walking around a city with his wife. Why would ANYONE carry one around if that wasn’t the reason? He was also in the military, and is probably as capable of handling a firearm as anyone in this thread.

What do you think Bobo meant when he said that a good reason for carrying a gun around was because by doing otherwise means “you would prefer to be a victim”. Do you think THAT’S a healthy mindset for someone to have who is carrying around a gun?

Every argument you seem to be making is against concealed carry at all. Not concealed-carry with a permit. No, my brother-in-law would not enter a situation voluntarily where he thinks he’d have to use a gun.

Do you think that Sgt. Schwartz, Bobo, you or anyone else in this thread is entering situations voluntarily where they think they might need to use a gun?

47

[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz]
And thanks, BearNenno for the suggestion of Fla. I am a Florida resident and am going to look into that ASAP.
[/quote]
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/license/forms.html

Fill out that Application Request. Choose “Concealed Weapon or Firearm License” from the drop-down menu. They’ll mail you a complete application.

BTW, you can just send them a copy of your CAC Card. You dont need to send them a qualification scorecard like I thought. Just the ID card is enough.

Open carry in North Carolina is practically nonexistant.
Concealed carry there is pretty restrictive too. Once you get your permit, here are places you still can’t carry:
Schools, places where admission was charged, places that sell alcohol for consumption on the premises, state buildings, police departments/jails, banks and financial institutions, public events, Places where a notice of concealed carry prohibition is posted.

… Good luck with that. What’s the point of issuing carry permits when a person practically can’t carry anywhere. How ridiculous.

Oh, and you also must inform an officer that you are carrying if he stops you for any reason.

And I’m sure you know the Army’s rules. You can’t carry concealed on post or in a government vehicle. However, there is no rule against carrying concealed in uniform. So like if you’re at Wal-Mart after work or eating lunch off base somewhere. BUT, in North Carolina, you can’t carry at most restaraunts anyway because they sell alcohol. Pretty lame. In Florida, you can carry at the restaraunt, just not at the bar.

48

[QUOTE=Trunk]
Straw-man much, Stranger?

I’m talking about (supposedly) responsible people carrying concealed weapons.

You’re acting like anyone who doesn’t get a permit is just sticking it in his waist-band and walking around like an action hero, and anyone who does get a permit, is a sane, law-abiding citizen.
[/quote]
And what possible reason would a “(supposedly) responsible person” have in not obtaining a CCW permit in a state with a nondiscretionary permit law?

[QUOTE=Trunk]
As to the BIL, of course carrying a gun “makes him feel good”. I didn’t say it makes him feel like a “big swinging dick”. It makes him feel safe when he’s walking around a city with his wife. Why would ANYONE carry one around if that wasn’t the reason? He was also in the military, and is probably as capable of handling a firearm as anyone in this thread.
[/QUOTE]
Carrying a fire arm does not make you “safe”, and if that is the feeling you get from carrying one then you’re indulging in a self-deceiving fantasy. A firearm–particularly a small and minimally powerful the size of a handgun–is a tool that may permit you by threat or application the ability to keep assailants at range and allow you to make an expedient escape from a threatening situation in which you feel your life to be in danger. It does not protect you from being attacked, it will not deflect incoming bullets, it won’t make you aware of threats and alert to danger that you might otherwise just avoid. Anyone who carries a firearm without some degree of concern or trepidation about the consequences should they be pressed into drawing and using it has an insufficient sense of responsibility, and anyone who believes that a firearm offers more than a very modest means to ward off attack and escape or fight way to cover has no real conception of an actual combat situation.

Color me unimpressed by the exclusive credentials of gun-toting veterans, either; as a class of people, ex-military gun owners strike me as being some of the least responsible in terms of safe gun handling, with exceptions for those who are genuine enthusiasts who have received additional training. A casual attitude about handling and carrying firearms goes right along with carelessly flinging workpieces at a band saw.

Strawman yourself; I’m not opposed to responsible gun ownership, or concealed carry by people who take seriously the responsibilities and understand the risks. As a class, these are the same people who’ll put forward the small amount of effort and time it takes to obtain a legal permit to carry a concealed weapon. What you advocate is feckless and flagrant violation of the law with no rationale beyond how tiresome the business of knowning and conforming to an entirely equitable code, and (assuming that you in fact pay taxes, have a driver’s license, et cetera) in a completely arbitrary and passive-aggressive manner.

Stranger

49

[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train]

Color me unimpressed by the exclusive credentials of gun-toting veterans, either; as a class of people, ex-military gun owners strike me as being some of the least responsible in terms of safe gun handling, with exceptions for those who are genuine enthusiasts who have received additional training.
[/quote]

Ditto.

Don’t knock it 'till you’ve tried it. :slight_smile:

50

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/license/forms.html

Fill out that Application Request. Choose “Concealed Weapon or Firearm License” from the drop-down menu. They’ll mail you a complete application. [snip]

BTW, you can just send them a copy of your CAC Card. You dont need to send them a qualification scorecard like I thought. Just the ID card is enough.

.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks again, Bear Nenno, I requested the applications last night, but I did not know about the CAC card as proof. My concern is not with carrying concealed off post, but with a holster that may be seen when I am in uniform or on post. I don’t get why I can’t carry in Waffle House, but such is the law. I can understand the rules about banks and police stations, but the law may be too restrictive here, however I did support the permit for carry out alcohol in my county, so maybe I can effect a change in the CCW laws.

As to Trunk: Yes, people violate the laws. People who have had their drivers license (Og I hate using that as an example) still drive. But it shows a responsibility if you can obtain a permit. I hope I never have to discharge a firearm for self defense. But I would like to know that if I ever do, I have done all I can to ensure that I am acting as a responsible citizen. If you want to start a thread about how gun laws should be violated, I will post to that.

SSG Schwartz

51

Since you’re looking for a small gun, you could try this one:
http://www.swissminigun.com/gallery_steel.html

except for the fact that it’s not importable to the United States.

52

[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried]
Since you’re looking for a small gun, you could try this one:
http://www.swissminigun.com/gallery_steel.html
[/QUOTE]
“I shot him with a small revovler I keep near my balls.”[right]–Perry ‘Gay Perry’ Van Shrike, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang[/right]

Stranger

53

[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried]
Since you’re looking for a small gun, you could try this one:
http://www.swissminigun.com/gallery_steel.html

except for the fact that it’s not importable to the United States.
[/QUOTE]

I must own one. Just Because.

However, I have doubts about the ability of that gun to even seriously harm someone, unless fired directly into the eye.

ETA: It seems I was right:

I still want one.

54

[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz]
My concern is not with carrying concealed off post, but with a holster that may be seen when I am in uniform or on post.
[/quote]
This should solve all your problems.
http://www.ghostinc.com/c=fzRGoJDaSnR2ziGoFjdRxw3Ad/product/GHO_STH

Get a decent sized pistol with a self-defense caliber. Forget about pocket toys. Get a Glock or XD or whatever, but get a real self-defense pistol. I have one of those holsters above that I use on my Glock 32. It’s actually pretty awesome, and very convenitnet for your situation. The holster stays with the firearm, so when you take out the pistol, you dont have a holster left attached to your belt or something.
I’ve been using that holster for about a year now. Previously I used either a Blade-Tec UIWB, or one of those kanaroo pouch deals–depending on what I was wearing. (Oh on a side note: If a person is adjusting his wardrobe to fit his gun/holster, then he’s fucked up. And probably dresses like an NRA spokesman or wears those stupid safari vests and 511 Tactical pants. Losers. You should choose your holster to fit your wardrobe, not the other way around)
Anyway, that Ghost Stealth I linked to works well with pretty much EVERYTHING. Sometimes, I’ll carry it in the front, sometimes on the side depending on what I’m wearing or what I’m doing. But there’s been no outfit I’ve worn that it doesn’t work with. This goes for gym shorts and t-shirt, to evening wear, to just about anything. I haven’t worn my IWB forever. Mainly because with the IWB, it takes a second to take it off the pants you wore last and put it on the pants you’re about to wear. And it only works on pants or shorts with a belt. No belt=change holster to kangaroo pouch. But with the Ghost Stealth, you just grab the pistol (with holster attached) and stick it in the waistband of whatever you happend to be wearing. Takes no effort at all.
And it will not fall out or anything. I’ve run 5 miles with it–no problem. It’s secure.

.

55

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
(Oh on a side note: If a person is adjusting his wardrobe to fit his gun/holster, then he’s fucked up. And probably dresses like an NRA spokesman or wears those stupid safari vests and 511 Tactical pants. Losers. You should choose your holster to fit your wardrobe, not the other way around)
[/QUOTE]
You mean like this? :wink:

The Ghost Stealth looks interesting, and useful for high concealment where wearing a belt holster is impractical, but I’d be afraid that the gun would tend to wear holes in clothing and snag on it during draw; after all, one purpose of a holster is to protect clothing and prevent the gun getting tangle up. Still, it’s a clever idea. Those bum pack things always scream “weapon!” to me, especially since they’ve fallen out of favor with the yuppie crowd and are mostly used by the retirement set. Whenever I see some middle-aged guy with stylish sunglasses and the slightly pudgy, clean-cut look that seems endemic to law enforement types wearing one of those it’s blindingly obvious that he’s a cop.

Stranger

56

[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train]
Those bum pack things always scream “weapon!” to me, especially since they’ve fallen out of favor with the yuppie crowd and are mostly used by the retirement set. Whenever I see some middle-aged guy with stylish sunglasses and the slightly pudgy, clean-cut look that seems endemic to law enforement types wearing one of those it’s blindingly obvious that he’s a cop.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I bought one of those things - leather of course (because that’s so inconspicuous), put the thing on once, promptly took it off and put my Dillon back on.

57

[QUOTE=CynicalGabe]
However, I have doubts about the ability of that gun to even seriously harm someone, unless fired directly into the eye.
[/QUOTE]
The “deluxe” (gold-plated model) comes with a rocket launcher tube though! See here:
http://www.swissminigun.com/prices.html

58

[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train]
The Ghost Stealth looks interesting, and useful for high concealment where wearing a belt holster is impractical, but I’d be afraid that the gun would tend to wear holes in clothing and snag on it during draw; after all, one purpose of a holster is to protect clothing and prevent the gun getting tangle up.
[/QUOTE]
Snagging was my first concern. I did about three dozen draws with it before I was convinced it wouldn’t snag. You just have to rotate the stocks toward your body while drawing upward (if that makes any sense). It comes out fast and smooth–no snagging.
One thing I’ve done differently with that holster, though, is I dont carry my Glock with a round in the chamber. It has a 3.5lb trigger, and that holster leaves it exposed, so. . . racking while drawing works fine, anyway.

59

Bear Nenno, thanks for the link to the ghost. I always saw holsters as bulky things that I would never carry. Have you conducted PT while carrying? If you have to PM me, I would appreciate that. It sounds like that would fit my needs even though I am partial to a wheel gun, I could get used to a pistol if it could fit my needs.

SSG Schwartz

60

[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz]
Bear Nenno, thanks for the link to the ghost. I always saw holsters as bulky things that I would never carry. Have you conducted PT while carrying? If you have to PM me, I would appreciate that. It sounds like that would fit my needs even though I am partial to a wheel gun, I could get used to a pistol if it could fit my needs.

SSG Schwartz
[/QUOTE]

If you mean weekly unit PT, then oh hell no. But I have been out running on my own, on the weekends or late evenings while carrying with that holster and it’s never felt like it was going to fall out or anything. Just got to make sure you tie your shorts tight to hold the extra weight of the pistol.