# What should replace capitalism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357 "2011-03-20T14:39:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/101 "2011-03-20T23:53:33Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I cannot document this, and indeed there seems to be an effort to conceal evidence, but I have read that the standard of living of every black African country has declined since the end of European colonialism. Of course it did; their entire societies were deliberately restructured to be unstable and to require the help of the empires to function. Ethnic hatred was encouraged (divide and conquer), the locals were not allowed to acquire the expertise needed to run the industries and institutions of the colonial regime. When the imperialists left, it was to be expected that the locals wouldn’t be able to keep the hollow shell over left running. Then there was the fact that the nations in question were artificial ones drawn up by European imperialists, with no particular connection to the local cultures and with little to no loyalty from the populace. And the only design for a national government they were familiar with was an imperialist one designed solely as a tool for exploitation. And then you had the Cold War, with America and the USSR deliberately stirring things up, imposing tyrants and creating chaos everywhere they could. Of course life on a battlefield is going to be hellish. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The average IQ of Negroes in Africa has been estimated at 70. That is a mental age of eleven. People at that level are perpetual children who require adult supervision. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/102 "2011-03-20T23:54:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Who said they do? I’m saying they own the value of their labor. The value of their labor is measured by the end product of their labor. > > Libe Abraham Lincoln said, labor is more valuable than capital. You’re obviously having trouble following your own posts. As has been noted, we posited a hypothetical new business in which the owner puts forward 100% of the capital and then hires 5 people, and each of the 5 employees receives an 18% share in the company. The owner then gets to keep a 10% share in the company. You said this was fine and how it should be, so let us presume that is what we are talking about, not something else. ---
**Author:** ![Otocor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d07c76/32.png) [@Otocor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otocor)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/103 "2011-03-20T23:56:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, you definitely jumped the shark with that post. I won’t be debating this subject with you any further. It seems like you are attempting to ‘weasel’ out of this conversation. Capitalism works by lying and conniving to get as much as an individual can get. Why wouldn’t a capitalist lie and connive to block a system that says ‘no’ to the “all about me” way of thinking and says ‘yes’ to the “all about us” way of thinking? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Do you believe humans are capable of greed, even without capitalism’s presence? Oh course, that’s how capitalism started. And in any communist society there will be those mislead dissenters. That is why it is necessary to teach children from the start that “we” is more important than “me.” The lessons learned in childhood are stick with people throughout their entire lives. Some ‘capitalists’ will become adults and will espouse capitalistic virtues. They will have to be dealt with accordingly, educated again about the benefits of the society in which they ‘now’ live (now being sometime in the future) and reintroduced into society when they show that they can fairly participate in it like everyone else. Since communism (as I’ve stated) is benevolent, the people will welcome the former dissenters with open arms. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Technically that would be accurate. The USSR had a fascist, totalitarian political system with a quasi-socialist economic system, but it never actually acheived communism as Marx defined it. Neither has any other country. In true communism, there is no government. Exactly. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How do we know it’s not the other way around? Maybe the reason capitalism doesn’t work perfectly is because of the malign influence of communism. If we eliminated the last vestiges of communism in the world, capitalism could finally achieve its ideal state and the world would be perfect. > > At least, it’s no less plausible than your theory. It’s not the other way around. Capitalism’s “ideal state” is to have a massive poor class and elite, wealthy few. Therefore, clearly capitalism is what hindered communism’s goal of having, rather than an elite few, an equal many. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/104 "2011-03-20T23:59:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope–the value of their labor is measured by how much they are willing to accept for it. > Why do you think people are wrong about what they are willing to accept for their labor? This is all incorrect and extraordinarily disingenuous. People generally don’t have a choice about it. By your logic slave labor is worth nothing because slaves “accept” it. What a crock. > [@](#): > > Let’s say you were trying to sell widgets and you wanted to sell if for $20. But I come along and say “nope, it’s worth $100, and you can’t sell it for any less than that.” Do you think that’s a good thing for me to do? What effect do you think my pronouncement would have on your widget sales? I have no idea how your question is analogous to anything I’ve said or what it has to do with people deserving to be justly compensated for their labor. Why do conservatives always see justly compensating people for their labor as some sort of gift or largesse? it’s weird. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/105 "2011-03-21T00:01:15Z")
> [@Otocor](#): > > It seems like you are attempting to ‘weasel’ out of this conversation. Capitalism works by lying and conniving to get as much as an individual can get. Why wouldn’t a capitalist lie and connive to block a system that says ‘no’ to the “all about me” way of thinking and says ‘yes’ to the “all about us” way of thinking? This isn’t a “conversation”. It’s a debate. You are making outrageous claims, and if you want to debate with people around here, you will have to back up those claims with cites. Bring cites, and I’ll be happy to continue the debate. And just so you know, the debate strategy you have been employing thus far is the logical fallacy known as “No True Scotsman”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/106 "2011-03-21T00:04:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You’re obviously having trouble following your own posts. As has been noted, we posited a hypothetical new business in which the owner puts forward 100% of the capital and then hires 5 people, and each of the 5 employees receives an 18% share in the company. The owner then gets to keep a 10% share in the company. > > You said this was fine and how it should be, so let us presume that is what we are talking about, not something else. Just to clarify, I’m saying that labor, as a whole, deserves a greater share of the profits than capital as a whole. The hypothetical you mention was asked about what I personally would accept, not about what should be imposed on anyone else. If you can’t pay your labor what they’re worth, then don’t start a business. ---
**Author:** ![Otocor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d07c76/32.png) [@Otocor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otocor)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/107 "2011-03-21T00:05:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This isn’t a “conversation”. It’s a debate. You are making outrageous claims, and if you want to debate with people around here, you will have to back up those claims with cites. Bring cites, and I’ll be happy to continue the debate. Once again with the semantics. Debate = discussion (per [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com)) Discussion = conversation (per [Thesaurus.com](http://Thesaurus.com)) Debate = conversation There are no reliable citations available in Western media, since most of them are capitalism-biased (read: lies). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/108 "2011-03-21T00:07:45Z")
> [@Otocor](#): > > Once again with the semantics. > > Debate = discussion (per [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com)) > Discussion = conversation (per [Thesaurus.com](http://Thesaurus.com)) > Debate = conversation > > There are no reliable citations available in Western media, since most of them are capitalism-biased (read: lies). Not here. The sort of “conversation” you are looking for can, perhaps, be found in the IMHO and MPSIMS forums of this message board. This forum is for debates. Please look up “No True Scotsman” and get back to us when you have a non-fallacious argument to put forward. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/109 "2011-03-21T00:08:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Just to clarify, I’m saying that labor, as a whole, deserves a greater share of the profits than capital as a whole. The hypothetical you mention was asked about what I personally would accept, not about what should be imposed on anyone else. > > If you can’t pay your labor what they’re worth, then don’t start a business. How do we determine the worth of labor? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/110 "2011-03-21T00:24:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is all incorrect and extraordinarily disingenuous. People generally don’t have a choice about it. By your logic slave labor is worth nothing because slaves “accept” it. What a crock. This is patently idiotic. Everyone has a choice about whether they work for someone or not. Your reference to slaves is beyond idiotic–we obviously aren’t discussing that. > [@](#): > > I have no idea how your question is analogous to anything I’ve said or what it has to do with people deserving to be justly compensated for their labor. Of course you don’t–you don’t have the mental equipment to engage in this conversation. Let me cut to the chase–any policy that results in increased cost of labor results in less labor (i.e., more unemployment). > [@](#): > > Why do conservatives always see justly compensating people for their labor as some sort of gift or largesse? it’s weird. Why do certain people feel that their own opinions are “just” whereas other people’s opinions are “injust”? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/111 "2011-03-21T00:30:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How do we determine the worth of labor? By the value of the end product. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/112 "2011-03-21T00:32:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Everyone has a choice about whether they work for someone or not. This is a crock. > [@](#): > > Of course you don’t–you don’t have the mental equipment to engage in this conversation. This is not the Pit and you analogy was senseless. > [@](#): > > Let me cut to the chase–any policy that results in increased cost of labor results in less labor (i.e., more unemployment). This is bullshit. > [@](#): > > Why do certain people feel that their own opinions are “just” whereas other people’s opinions are “injust”? Another non-sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/113 "2011-03-21T00:35:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > By the value of the end product. Well, you can’t determine the value of the end product without a price system, and a price system is what you want to eliminate for labor, so I don’t see how that can work. But let’s say we can somehow make that work. 1. How have you determined that this is the way to determine the value? Clearly, God didn’t tell you this, so it must start from some basic assumption. 2. What percent goes to labor, and how is that objectively determined? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/114 "2011-03-21T00:40:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a crock. Nuh-uh. > [@](#): > > This is not the Pit and you analogy was senseless. Nuh-uh. > [@](#): > > This is bullshit. Nuh-uh. > [@](#): > > Another non-sequitur. Nuh-uh. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/115 "2011-03-21T00:41:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, you can’t determine the value of the end product without a price system, and a price system is what you want to eliminate for labor, so I don’t see how that can work. I didn’t say anything aout eliminating a price system. > [@](#): > > 1. How have you determined that this is the way to determine the value? It’s pretty self-evident. How can you even argue with it? > [@](#): > > What percent goes to labor, and how is that objectively determined? I’m not a fucking mathematician, but I’d say labor = profit minus capital. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/116 "2011-03-21T00:45:17Z")
Dio, if a government instituted your policies (i.e,. required labor to be paid in accordance with the end value of the product), what effect do you think it would have on unemployment? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/117 "2011-03-21T00:49:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Dio, if a government instituted your policies (i.e,. required labor to be paid in accordance with the end value of the product), what effect do you think it would have on unemployment? None. This is the same bullshit kind of argument we always hear about forcing employers to pay a minimum wage or give benefits or any number of other things. Businesses will still employ as many people as they need to employ to stay in business. They are not going to shut down. Likewise they will not hire more people if they get more generous tax cuts. They employ as many people as they need. No more, no less. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/118 "2011-03-21T00:49:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say anything aout eliminating a price system. You want to eliminate a huge part of it. > [@](#): > > It’s pretty self-evident. How can you even argue with it? It’s not self-evident to me, and since it has never been the policy of any capitalist system in the world, then I’d say it’s not self-evident to the majority of humans living in the developed world. Got anything else? > [@](#): > > I’m not a fucking mathematician, but I’d say labor = profit minus capital. I’m a worker in your factory. What share of the profits does my labor get me? If you’re claiming the value is determined by the value of the end product, what percent of that value goes to the worker? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/119 "2011-03-21T00:49:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m not a fucking mathematician, but I’d say labor = profit minus capital. But if I have capital to invest, and find laborers offering to work for less than “profit minus capital”, why shouldn’t I shrug and accept their valuation? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357/120 "2011-03-21T00:52:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But if I have capital to invest, and find laborers offering to work for less than “profit minus capital”, why shouldn’t I shrug and accept their valuation? I like the way he just shrugs off this sort of thing by saying you shouldn’t start your business. Tough shit for the people who would’ve have those jobs, too. Because it’s not profitable to pay them Dio wages, they get… no job! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-replace-capitalism/575357.md?page=7)