# What should the criminal penalty for practical jokes be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137 "2011-04-20T21:27:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/41 "2011-04-21T16:45:02Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > But whereas the taping is pertinent to the charges against the accused, the suicide is not. Well, that’s your opinion, and it’s not a neutral one. I have a different reading of the case (which I dont try to present as a neutral one). ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/42 "2011-04-21T16:46:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I once had roommates toss lit firecrackers under the door while I was engaged, though. This was a favor I managed to return at a later date. Do you think that these actions would be classified as an “invasion of your privacy”? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/43 "2011-04-21T16:48:49Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Well, that’s your opinion, and it’s not a neutral one. I have a different reading of the case (which I dont try to present as a neutral one). Is this different one some other timeline where they have been charged with manslaughter? I’m going on the recent indictments handed down by the prosecutor. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/44 "2011-04-21T16:53:54Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Do you think that these actions would be classified as an “invasion of your privacy”? No. They didn’t see anything. They just made the room noisy. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/45 "2011-04-21T16:58:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They just made the room noisy. That, actually, was your job. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/46 "2011-04-21T16:58:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No. They didn’t see anything. They just made the room noisy. Certain US privacy laws consider “unreasonably intruding upon the seclusion or solitude of another” a violation of their privacy. Sounds like your example would qualify. Thankfully no one pressed charges against you. Most likely the statute of limitations has run out. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/47 "2011-04-21T17:11:00Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > So would you feel the same way if Clementi were straight, and was having sex his girlfriend? Because that kind of crap goes on all the time with little consequences. Maybe a disciplinary hearing with the University dean, but doesn’t make national news. I don’t believe this kind of crap goes on all the time with little consequences. And I went to several major universities. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/48 "2011-04-21T17:50:19Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > However, I would think that a good defense attorney could show that the resulting suicide would have no relevancy to the answer of your hypothetical question. It’s possible that a defense attorney could keep the suicide out of the guilt/innocence phase of the trial, but keeping it out of the punishment phase will likely be more difficult. If the evidence comes in in the punishment phase via the deceased’s weeping parents, friends, and family, there’s a very good chance that the jury or judge will give the defendant the max, or something close to it. If the evidence establishing his guilt is pretty good, a defense attorney might be telling the defendant that he needs to be thinking very, very hard about the DA’s plea offer. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/49 "2011-04-21T18:10:18Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Bricker, greatly appreciate your insight here. > > However, I would think that a good defense attorney could show that the resulting suicide would have no relevancy to the answer of your hypothetical question. > [@pravnik](#): > > It’s possible that a defense attorney could keep the suicide out of the guilt/innocence phase of the trial… I agree it’s possible. But several of counts relate to tampering with or destroying evidence, and one count specifically mentions the accusation that Ravi deleted a Twitter message and substituted another one in its place. How does the state explain that without recourse to the suicide? Their theory of the case on that charge is that the victim committed suicide, and that Ravi then attempted to remove evidence that he had been the cause of the victim’s distress. Without the suicide, Ravi’s actions are incomprehensible. You can’t force the state to convince the jury of their theory without letting them explain why it came to pass… unless, as I said above, you sell the judge on the idea that the information’s prejudicial value outweighs its probative value. Do you really see a judge coming down on that question on the side of the defense? I don’t. Now, the defense could defang the prosecution by admitting guilt on those charges, which, frankly, seem to be kind of a slam dunk anyway. Then the jury doesn’t have to decide the tampering charge, and so therefore they don’t need to hear about the suicide… ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/50 "2011-04-21T18:22:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you really see a judge coming down on that question on the side of the defense? I don’t. No, I don’t either, and I agree with that analysis. I’m entertaining Omar’s assertion that the court might keep it out of guilt/innocence for the sake of argument, but even if that were somehow the case I can’t see it not coming in during punishment. Chances are slim in the former and slim to none in the latter, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/51 "2011-04-21T19:36:28Z")
To the OP, maybe the question should be “was this a practical joke gone wrong or a hate crime?” I think a case can be made that this occured because Tyler Clementi was gay, and by extension this gets defined as a hate crime. I am not a lawyer nor do I play on on TV, but is this how it’s looked at legally? Eg, that hate crime would be the legal assumption and not that Dharun Ravi meant to play a practical joke on someone who just happened to be gay. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/52 "2011-04-21T20:20:13Z")
I have a legal question about a hypothetical practical joke gone wrong: Buttering the floor is an old prank that still goes on. Suppose someone buttered a floor and the person they’re pranking slipped on it as as planned, but due to a perfect storm of angles and floor hardness and the like when they slipped they hit their head and it killed them, which could conceivably happen. Clearly the pranker did not intend to kill them, but could they be charged with manslaughter? The reason I ask is that this seems to be the case with Ravi. He played a prank intending it to humiliate and cause temporary discomfort (like falling on a buttered floor) but not cause anything serious, though as with the buttered floor it was conceivable- if unlikely- to a reasonable person it could go really wrong. I think Ravi should be charged exactly as the floor butterer would be charged but nothing more and nothing less. I’m against hate crimes legislation in general but I’m particularly against it being bandied about in this case; as said several times there’s no evidence he wouldn’t have done a similar stunt if his roommate was straight. (My understanding is that Clementi and the other guy were just making out, not actually having sex.) ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/53 "2011-04-21T20:26:04Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > (My understanding is that Clementi and the other guy were just making out, not actually having sex.) Where did you get that? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/54 "2011-04-21T20:56:04Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Where did you get that? [Ravi’s lawyers](http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/11/01/Lawyers_No_Sexual_Content_in_Clementi_Broadcast/)admittedly, but the video no longer existing there’s nothing to combat it. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/55 "2011-04-21T21:07:07Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > [Ravi’s lawyers](http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/11/01/Lawyers_No_Sexual_Content_in_Clementi_Broadcast/)admittedly, but the video no longer existing there’s nothing to combat it. Darn, killing yourself over making out. I just find it so depressingly sad. ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/56 "2011-04-21T23:48:44Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Divorces and adultery can lead to suicide too, but you can’t criminalize those. At least not anymore. > > Job losses can lead to suicide > > etc. In general, none of those things are specifically done to humiliate someone. They have other purposes. In practice, the _way_ that you fire someone, or the way you serve divorce papers, or the things you disclose in divorce proceedings, or the retaliatory act of adultery can be intended to humiliate, but not those things themselves. A good practical joke isn’t intended to humiliate either; slightly embarass, maybe. None of those things, in themselves, are designed to make someone feel worthless. An act of humiliation, however, could certainly be seen to contribute to someone’s suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/57 "2011-04-22T14:55:02Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > I don’t know, are they both out to their parents? Some girls might find it pretty uncomfortable. > [@](#): > > Denied any rights recently because of whose genitals they bump? What rights are denied to an “out” homosexual that are not denied to a closeted homosexual? > [@](#): > > As soon as all that’s cleared up and college douches stop using ‘gay’ as an insult, the situations are more comparable. That sort of things starts waaay before college as evidenced by by 10 year old nephews prolific use of the word to describe things that are lame. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/58 "2011-04-22T15:03:02Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I have a legal question about a hypothetical practical joke gone wrong: > > Buttering the floor is an old prank that still goes on. Suppose someone buttered a floor and the person they’re pranking slipped on it as as planned, but due to a perfect storm of angles and floor hardness and the like when they slipped they hit their head and it killed them, which could conceivably happen. Clearly the pranker did not intend to kill them, but could they be charged with manslaughter? I think crimes generally have an intent requirement that does not exist here. The results of a prank can still be grounds for a lawsuit if it is reasoanbly forseeable. > [@](#): > > The reason I ask is that this seems to be the case with Ravi. He played a prank intending it to humiliate and cause temporary discomfort (like falling on a buttered floor) but not cause anything serious, though as with the buttered floor it was conceivable- if unlikely- to a reasonable person it could go really wrong. I think Ravi should be charged exactly as the floor butterer would be charged but nothing more and nothing less. I’m against hate crimes legislation in general but I’m particularly against it being bandied about in this case; as said several times there’s no evidence he wouldn’t have done a similar stunt if his roommate was straight. (My understanding is that Clementi and the other guy were just making out, not actually having sex.) This guy klilled himself for getting caught making out with another guy? He was a bit high strung wasn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/59 "2011-04-22T15:32:11Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > So would you feel the same way if Clementi were straight, and was having sex his girlfriend? Because that kind of crap goes on all the time with little consequences. Maybe a disciplinary hearing with the University dean, but doesn’t make national news. So that’s the agenda, isn’t it? Those faggots get all the breaks these days with their special laws protecting them. Being straight is almost as hard as being white. If you want to succeed in this country you need to be a gay, black, illegal alien in a wheel chair. Those are the guys pulling in the bucks. Us straight white guys are facing tough times. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137/60 "2011-04-22T16:36:21Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Saying that the resulting death is an indication of the seriousness of the crime is saying that he contributed to the suicide. That’s a huge leap to me. Why not charge him with manslaughter then? He’s not charged with manslaughter because he didn’t kill the guy. That the suicide resulted _is_ an indicator of the seriousness of the crime, but it doesn’t mean that it’s _more_ serious than a similar case where a suicide does not result. IMO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-criminal-penalty-for-practical-jokes-be/579137.md?page=4)