# What should the smallest unit of a currency be able to buy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043 "2017-03-13T00:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/21 "2017-03-13T14:32:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Can you still get five bees for a quarter? No, the bees are now all in bee-shooting hounds. ---
**Author:** ![Last\_Glacial\_Maximum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bc79bd/32.png) [@Last\_Glacial\_Maximum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Last_Glacial_Maximum)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/22 "2017-03-13T22:22:48Z")
IIRC, in Chicago in the late 1880’s, my Grandmother told me that she would have one single nickel to spend on a day’s entertainment. She said it cost her a penny each way on the street car, 2 cents to watch a movie and one cent for a bag of candy ! So pennies have certainly lost their purchasing power… . ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/23 "2017-03-13T22:30:05Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The question should be “do you want everything to be rounded up to the nearest nickel?” Without pennies, we’ll be paying more for everything not divisible by 5 cents. Only for cash transactions. Credit card purchases can be done in smaller increments. And even if you made 10 cash purchases a day, that’s only $0.25 extra per day that you’d be paying as a result of the rounding up. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/24 "2017-03-13T23:20:19Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What were the smallest coins in use in early England? Dunno, but the 1797 Geo III Cartwheel Pennies weighed one and a half oz each. They immediately added 2 oz tuppences 1.6 inches diameter by one-fifth of an inch thick for those who felt their pockets weighed too little. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/25 "2017-03-13T23:33:24Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/26 "2017-03-14T00:31:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What were the smallest coins in use in early England? > > … Silver farthings (quarter-pennies, very tiny) were minted as early as the 13th century (and were also hand-made by cutting a penny into quarters) and would buy [in the 14th century] a quart of ale, half a chicken, or six eggs… I’ll answer my own question, which connects to OP’s since the farthing — price of a quart of ale, six eggs, or a cheap tunic — was the smallest unit of currency in 14th-century England. And in the early 13th century, when the farthing was worth even more — say ten eggs instead of six — farthings weren’t even minted; people made their own by cutting pennies into quarters. Source: [ENGLISH COINAGE FROM ANCIENT TIMES TO THE PRESENT](http://www.wnccoins.com/0024.htm) > [@](#): > > The first money used in Britain seems to have been primitive iron bars and gold “ring money.” Greek coins have also been found in small numbers at archeological sites in southern England and it is known that traders from Carthage came to buy tin. By about 150 BC gold and base silver Staters and Quarter Staters were introduced from Northern Gaul. … The earliest Celtic coins produced in Britain were crude cast potin (an alloy of bronze and tin) specimens issued in Kent at the very end of the second century before Christ. By about 70 BC gold and silver coins modeled after the Staters of Gaul were also issued. These coins were uninscribed and cannot be attributed to a specific ruler or even tribe. > …by the end of Nero’s reign [Celtic coinage] had been fully replaced by Roman issues. > > … a new denomination was introduced in about 765 based on the French Denier, **these Pennies were to remain as virtually the only denomination used in England for six hundred years.** In the north [silver] Styca continued to be minted until the mid ninth century, eventually being debased to a crude bronze coin with crosses and blundered legends. > … Henry [III]'s reign also saw the introduction of a gold penny valued at 20d., but it proved unpopular and was quickly abandoned. In 1279 the New Coinage of Edward I was undertaken, a silver Groat of 4d. was issued but quickly abandoned because of it’s unpopularity with English merchants. At this time the mint was consolidated within the narrow space between the inner and outer walls of the Tower of London. The style of his new penny was the most advanced of any medieval English coin up to that time, it was retained for over 200 years and copied by many European countries. \*\*His reign also saw the first significant issue of round Halfpennies and Farthings, up to that time it was necessary to cut a penny in half or quarters to make change. \*\* I admit I’m surprised to hear the silver penny was the lowest-valued coin for centuries. The smallest coin of the realm had to be cut in half to pay for a half-gallon of ale! How were small transactions conducted? Did people more-or-less ignore trifling purchases? It does seem eye-opening when one recalls how worried Americans are about using a 5-cent piece as the lowest coin — I don’t think you can get even a quart of ale with a nickel nowadays! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/27 "2017-03-14T05:49:17Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > How were small transactions conducted? Did people more-or-less ignore trifling purchases? It does seem eye-opening when one recalls how worried Americans are about using a 5-cent piece as the lowest coin — I don’t think you can get even a quart of ale with a nickel nowadays! If it’s American ale, it’s mostly water, anyway. Zing! ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/28 "2017-03-14T10:32:41Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > I’d argue that it should be less than the unit needed to buy even the cheapest something. > > Let’s say the cheapest thing on the market is a shmoo and it costs 1 TinyCurrency (TC). If you don’t have a unit of currency smaller than a TC it becomes inconvenient to try and adjust pricing by small amounts. Think about it in terms of cost or production going up or down by a small amount. The only option to adjust pricing for one shmoo is a 100% price increase or 100% decrease (aka free). You can minimize issues by bulk sales , like 10 TC to buy 9 shmoos, but that doesn’t work for people that don’t want to consume shmoos in bulk. > > We’re to the point where the penny is around 1% or less of a lot of the lowest cost items. That much granularity in pricing is overkill. More granularity than 100% of the lowest cost item swings too far IMO. “less than a lot of”? How many low cost items need there be at a particular price point for it to have influence on the units of a currency? The US economy managed quite well when there actually were consumer goods you could get for a penny. Sure if you have to price up single candies from 1 to 2 pennies that’s a major price hike. But single candy sales is a vanishingly small part of your sales and you don’t have to double the price of 10 candies bought together. Norway has no coins smaller than 0.5 kroner (5-6 cents), but I could if I wanted to pick up a single candy, nominally selling for less than that, and bring it to the cash register. If paying cash I’d have to overpay, if paying by card I would probably still have to overpay, but by less, but I’m not going to start marching for electronic payment solutions to include more decimal places. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/29 "2017-03-14T10:38:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I admit I’m surprised to hear the silver penny was the lowest-valued coin for centuries. The smallest coin of the realm had to be cut in half to pay for a half-gallon of ale! > > How were small transactions conducted? Did people more-or-less ignore trifling purchases? It does seem eye-opening when one recalls how worried Americans are about using a 5-cent piece as the lowest coin — I don’t think you can get even a quart of ale with a nickel nowadays! It’s where the tradition of buying a round comes from. No sorry, it’s the origin of the bar tab. No, I’m just making things up. But I’d be surprised if it isn’t true that small transactions like buying a pint were unusual, and that it’s quite possible you just paid a high premium if you came from out of town and insisted all you wanted to buy was a single beer. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/30 "2017-03-14T11:10:41Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The question shouldn’t be “what can you buy for a penny”. The question should be “do you want everything to be rounded up to the nearest nickel?” Without pennies, we’ll be paying more for everything not divisible by 5 cents. That isn’t how it works, and never has been how it works, prices are rounded up or down, not just up. This concept is especially relevant in the US where we frequently apply a sales tax percentage to purchases, at the total level, so you never really know exactly what cent value your purchase will come out to, unless you buy exactly the same thing every single day. Back to the OP, I’m having a hard time thinking of anything under $.25 that really deserves to be handled by an individual transaction. The only thing I know I can buy for less is time on a parking meter or individual pieces of Bazooka gum, and I don’t think our nation’s currency strategy should be based on gum purchases. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/31 "2017-03-14T13:46:12Z")
As well, as time winds along, currency loses value ( leading to this OP, of course ), so most countries issue a revaluation every century or so — not to cheat the working man, but to adapt to new circumstances and make things align. Particularly of course when it costs 70,000 X to buy an orange. Instead of concerning oneself over wretched little coins that no longer buy an Axe for 5 of them \*, it would be better to recognize 10 cents as the final division — assuming the US is not in line to adopt a new currency entirely — in Britain it would make fuck all difference to me if 10p ( ex 2 shillings in real money ) was the smallest coin and the smallest unit of accounting. There will be puir souls wretchedly crooning “_Ma bawbees, ma precious bawbees !_” \*\* covering their heads with mantels and rocking back and forth like a heroine in a Greek Play — assuming a bad thing happens in a Greek Play — but as usual, these people can safely be ignored. - **[Luminarium — Medieval Price List](http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm)** \*\* A **[Bawbee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bawbee)** was a Scots ha-penny. Because Scotland was always astoundingly poor until the Union it was valued at 6 Scottish Pennies or 1 English ha-penny. Remember, 12 pennies to a shilling; 20 shillings to a Pound. That was the last iteration, since Pounds weren’t used in ordinary life, despite them being the oldest currency still used, a Pound was an accounting value ( however, other coins such as the Sovereign conveniently had the value of 20 shillings. It’s really easier to regard the Shilling as the base value until at least the 20th century. A couple of links: Old Bailey Online - **[Coinage](https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Coinage.jsp)** Marc Carlson - Historical Coinage “**[Cheat Sheet](http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/coin.html)**” ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/32 "2017-03-14T14:25:12Z")
[Rabbi, is it possible to use the One Ring, to rule them all, in the ceremony of kiddushin to solemnize a marriage?](https://archiveofourown.org/works/3478202) A wife? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/33 "2017-03-14T15:19:42Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > As well, as time winds along, currency loses value ( leading to this OP, of course ), so most countries issue a revaluation every century or so — not to cheat the working man, but to adapt to new circumstances and make things align. Particularly of course when it costs 70,000 X to buy an orange. I don’t know that that’s true. Most countries I know of have never issued a revaluation. And the ones that have revaluated have done so due to hyperinflation over a short period of time, not as a once in a century or so response to ordinary inflation. Or also swapping one currency that wasn’t at 70,000 per orange for another quite similar, for some political reason or other. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/34 "2017-03-15T17:48:37Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That isn’t how it works, and never has been how it works, prices are rounded up or down, not just up. > > This concept is especially relevant in the US where we frequently apply a sales tax percentage to purchases, at the total level, so you never really know exactly what cent value your purchase will come out to, unless you buy exactly the same thing every single day. > > Back to the OP, I’m having a hard time thinking of anything under $.25 that really deserves to be handled by an individual transaction. The only thing I know I can buy for less is time on a parking meter or individual pieces of Bazooka gum, and I don’t think our nation’s currency strategy should be based on gum purchases. Yes. true your change will be rounded to the nearest nickel, but prices wont. Note that gas prices are still sometimes calculated to mills aka 1/10th of a cent. I agree, we dont really need a coin smaller than a quarter. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/35 "2017-03-15T19:30:10Z")
What’s wrong with revaluing currency? In the sense of “what used to be a dollar is now 10 cents, what used to be a dime is now a penny, this only applies to currency minted after date X, earlier coinage retains its earlier value”. After a not-very-confusing year or two where both currencies are used side by side, I’m not seeing a problem. And it isn’t much more confusing than simply getting rid of a coin entirely. As mentioned, this is most commonly associated with Weimar Germany or Zimbabwe-style hyper-inflation, but assuming we just want to get back to Grandpa’s prices, for old time’s sake, what’s the downside? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/36 "2017-03-15T19:43:17Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > What’s wrong with revaluing currency? In the sense of “what used to be a dollar is now 10 cents, what used to be a dime is now a penny, this only applies to currency minted after date X, earlier coinage retains its earlier value”. After a not-very-confusing year or two where both currencies are used side by side, I’m not seeing a problem. And it isn’t much more confusing than simply getting rid of a coin entirely. > > As mentioned, this is most commonly associated with Weimar Germany or Zimbabwe-style hyper-inflation, but assuming we just want to get back to Grandpa’s prices, for old time’s sake, what’s the downside? The USA is proud of the fact that a dollar bill is still worth a dollar, no matter when is was printed. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/37 "2017-03-15T23:54:44Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Even when I was a kid in the 1960s pretty much the only thing you could buy for a penny was a gumball. Where I lived there were stores that had wide selections of penny candy. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/38 "2017-03-16T00:04:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Note that gas prices are still sometimes calculated to mills aka 1/10th of a cent. “Sometimes”? I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a gas pump that didn’t charge that extra nine mills per gallon… ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/39 "2017-03-17T10:08:40Z")
> [@Last\_Glacial\_Maximum](#): > > IIRC, in Chicago in the late 1880’s, my Grandmother told me that she would have one single nickel to spend on a day’s entertainment. > > She said it cost her a penny each way on the street car, 2 cents to watch a movie and one cent for a bag of candy ! > > So pennies have certainly lost their purchasing power… > . That’s what, about a $25 experience now? $3.50 each weay on public transit, $6 for candy & $12 for a movie ticket? So the smallest unit of currency should be the $5 [del]bill[/del] coin. The smaller stuff is just details; the money equivalent of sawdust. They should also mint $10 and $20 coins. The only paper money should be $100s. Each with an embedded tracking chip fully disclosed to freak out the rubes. 😃 Seriously speaking, the fact slow inflation has reduced our money to 1 / 500th of what it was 150ish years ago says we’re probably overdue for either a formal decimal point shift or at least rejiggering the stupid coinage. If nothing is done then someday it will be literally true that it will take a wheelbarrow full of pennies to buy an ordinary loaf of bread. Shades of Weimar! ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043/40 "2017-03-17T11:14:58Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > “Sometimes”? I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a gas pump that didn’t charge that extra nine mills per gallon… Extra? That’s an interesting way to put it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-smallest-unit-of-a-currency-be-able-to-buy/782043.md?page=3)