# What should the USA do in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 17, 2014, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971 "2014-06-17T07:00:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/81 "2014-06-21T20:08:17Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Your opinion that Kurdish actions thus far are part of your conclusion that Iraq Civil War II had begun is quite baseless. They are fighting to defend Iraq from a terrorist threat and would not be doing so if it were not for the threat to all of Iraq’s existence. You can’t be that obtuse. The Kurds are not remotely defending Iraq; they are defending their own territory - distinctly NOT pushing against ISIS controlled areas. In fact, they probably mostly believe that “Iraq” doesn’t exist anymore. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/82 "2014-06-21T20:35:36Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > . > > I was talking about how much of the population and infrastructure the terrorists really control? The terrorists are outnumbered a thousand to one just against the Peshmerga. When Iraqi Security Forces are added in - things don’t look good for ISIS for holding territory seized for a long period of time. It’s not the ISF against ISIS. It’s the ISF against ISIS + Sunni Insurgents. And Sunni Insurgents includes well trained, former members of SH’s army. I’m surprised you haven’t learned that yet. Go back and read the NYT article i was talking about earlier. No more comments about your Forbes Energy Sector Expert who seems to change his mind 180 degrees every few days? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/83 "2014-06-21T20:35:42Z")
[Amid turmoil, Iraq’s Kurdish region is laying foundation for independent state](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/amid-turmoil-iraqs-kurdish-region-is-laying-foundation-for-independent-state/2014/06/12/c1f22d7c-f26a-11e3-bf76-447a5df6411f_story.html) > [@](#): > > With relations badly strained, there is little appetite in the Kurdish capital of Irbil to provide any military support to Maliki. > > “The Iraqi government has been holding the Kurds hostage, and it’s not reasonable for them to expect the Kurds to give them any help in this situation without compromising to Kurdish demands,” said an adviser to the Kurdish government, speaking on the condition of anonymity to be candid. > > The pesh merga say they have not tried to displace ISIS from territory it now controls. > > “In most places, we aren’t bothering them [ISIS], and they aren’t bothering us — or the civilians,” said Lt. Gen. Shaukur Zibari, a pesh merga commander. > > In his statement, Yawar said, “There is no need for Peshmerga forces to move into these areas.” I can’t see how anyone could honestly say the Kurds don’t think this is a civil war and are pretty happy about it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/84 "2014-06-21T20:59:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > [Amid turmoil, Iraq’s Kurdish region is laying foundation for independent state](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/amid-turmoil-iraqs-kurdish-region-is-laying-foundation-for-independent-state/2014/06/12/c1f22d7c-f26a-11e3-bf76-447a5df6411f_story.html) > > I can’t see how anyone could honestly say the Kurds don’t think this is a civil war and are pretty happy about it. You know, Iraq Civil War I never really spilled over much into the Kurdish areas. Also from your cite: > [@](#): > > The conflict has been so tense recently that Kurdish leaders have obliquely suggested that, absent concessions from Maliki, they will hold a referendum on whether to declare independence — a measure that would almost certainly pass amid an upswell of Kurdish nationalism. I’m sure **NFBW** will support such a referendum and eventual secession, even though that contradicts his earlier statements in this thread that that Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds are trying to work together. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/85 "2014-06-21T21:16:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I can’t see how anyone could honestly say the Kurds don’t think this is a civil war and are pretty happy about it. I can’t see how anyone can say that the Kurds have engaged in a rebellion and civil war against the government of Iraq? They didn’t drive the Iraqi troops out of Kirkuk did They? The case for Iraq Civil War II is falling into further decline if this turns out to be evolving. Negotiating the way to federalism after Sunnis and Kurds kill and capture the terrorists that invaded Iraq in the first place. Negotiating an outcom is not civil war. > [@](#): > > Instead, Kurdish leaders have been in talks with Sunni commanders from neighbouring Ninevah province, of which Mosul is the capital, to devise a strategy that would effectively fragment Iraq. > > Mr Saleh said his people are working with Atheel al-Nujaifi, the ousted governor of Ninevah, to transform Iraq into a federal state. > > The first step would be to create an “Arab Sunni army” that is autonomous of Baghdad’s Shia-dominated government to expel ISIS from Mosul and lift the threat to Kirkuk. “We would support the Mosul governor’s move for federalism,” said Mr Saleh, adding that the two territories coulod defeat ISIS without any help from Baghdad. “Our Peshmerga forces, and the Sunni army are enough to stop ISIS.” [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10901796/Iraqi-Kurds-seize-their-chance-to-build-foundations-of-a-new-state.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10901796/Iraqi-Kurds-seize-their-chance-to-build-foundations-of-a-new-state.html) As I have been arguing it does not seem possible for ISIS and its Iraqi born collaborators to hold on to anything they have siezed. Hence no civil war against the government in Baghdad just pursuit for federalism. And more autonomy for the Kurds. No civil war unless Maliki decides to fight. And that scenario seems quite unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/86 "2014-06-21T21:32:19Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Hence no civil war against the government in Baghdad just pursuit for federalism. And more autonomy for the Kurds. And they want Kirkuk **and** Mosul, I’ve read. If they got all the territory they want, Iraqi Kurdistan would border on the Kurdish bit of Syria, and they might have designs on that too. I see no reason why they shouldn’t have it, but Assad would object if he were in any position to object. OTOH, from Assad’s POV it might make sense to say to the Kurds, “If you defeat ISIS you can have the Governorate of Al-Hasakah!” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/87 "2014-06-21T21:32:42Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I can’t see how anyone can say that the Kurds have engaged in a rebellion and civil war against the government of Iraq? They didn’t drive the Iraqi troops out of Kirkuk did > They? The Kurds standing to the side and protecting their holdings doesn’t change the fact that there is a civil war going on. When government troops run away and the Kurds moved in to take over Kirkuk, doesn’t it make it less of a land grab because they didn’t fight each other. And what the Kurds want to “negotiate”, is the ability to do whatever they like without Baghdad approval. I know you are enjoying this new parroting back words thing, but that “you can’t see” my point, shows you aren’t very perceptive. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/88 "2014-06-21T21:39:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I can’t see how anyone can say that the Kurds have engaged in a rebellion and civil war against the government of Iraq? They didn’t drive the Iraqi troops out of Kirkuk did > They? > > The case for Iraq Civil War II is falling into further decline if this turns out to be evolving. Negotiating the way to federalism after Sunnis and Kurds kill and capture the terrorists that invaded Iraq in the first place. > > Negotiating an outcom is not civil war. > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10901796/Iraqi-Kurds-seize-their-chance-to-build-foundations-of-a-new-state.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10901796/Iraqi-Kurds-seize-their-chance-to-build-foundations-of-a-new-state.html) > > As I have been arguing it does not seem possible for ISIS and its Iraqi born collaborators to hold on to anything they have siezed. > > Hence no civil war against the government in Baghdad just pursuit for federalism. And more autonomy for the Kurds. > > No civil war unless Maliki decides to fight. And that scenario seems quite unlikely. Once again you have failed to understand your own cite. There is no negotiation to end the current civil war. The negotiations are between the Kurds and Sunnis to cut the central government out of it. Maliki wishes there were negotiations ongoing, but from your cite: > [@](#): > > With no forces left in the north, Mr Maliki is entirely dependent on the Kurds and local Sunni tribes to push ISIS out of the towns under its control, including Iraq’s third most populous city, Mosul. > But Mr Maliki will have to offer concessions in return. So far, however, the bargaining has not begun. “There are no talks whatsoever,” said Mr Sadiq. “Our relationship with the central government is very bad and we couldn’t get over that.” Do you understand that? No talks whatsoever about federalism. This civil war is underway. If negotiations ever result in an end to the fighting, they will end the civil war. And right now the most likely outcome is partition. If the Kurds and Sunni Arabs do drive out ISIS, they will have no reason to want back into a unified Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/89 "2014-06-21T21:55:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m sure **NFBW** will support such a referendum and eventual secession, even though that contradicts his earlier statements in this thread that that Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds are trying to work together. What contradicts this? (“It appears Maliki and Kurd and Sunni leaders are trying to avoid a repeat of the violence that occurred under US occupation”) That was based on this: (“Quote: Late Tuesday, the prime minister appeared on television with Sunni and Kurdish leaders. They issued a joint statement about the need to close ranks and stick to “national priorities” in the face of the threat posed by the militants.”) I’ve argued that ‘partition’ is more likely than ‘violent civil war’. Do you dispute that? Here is my response: ("Do you have anything in mind for the US government to do something militarily to intervene in anyway to paraphrase it: (…“to bridge differences … over rights … to independently export oil and over territorial claims.”) between Sunnis and Kurds and Shiite? We would not bomb Kurds or Simnis if they sought autonomy from Iraq. The question is wouid we recognized doing what Biden thought should be considered done a long time ago. Partition. ") Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds are can work together on resolving those territorial and autonomy issues even if it means there separate countries, but there may be advantages for a federalization or decentralization of authority that can be worked out without Civil War II that John Mace knew would happen long before it has not happened yet. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/90 "2014-06-21T22:02:33Z")
What would be the advantages to the Kurds of a federalist Iraq as opposed to their current _de facto_ independence? ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/91 "2014-06-21T22:11:00Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Mostly nothing. Not your problem; the whole world is not your responsibility. Support policies that further energy independence. Stop financing rebels in Syria. Throw the Saudi and Pakistani under the bus and switch allegiance to India and Iran. Support Kurdish independence. Bomb Islamists with drones if they become a little too bothersome. But mostly the people in the region will have to take it upon themselves to combat the snake at their breast. > > The EU should probably speed up EU integration with Turkey. While I agree with most of your comment, we do have relations with India, but why an “alliance with Iran”? What good does Iran do, no benefit whatsoever. Plus we barely support rebels in Syria, not even liberal ones, Assad gets plenty of dedicated support from the lovely bunch of Iran, Russia, Hezbollah, not to mention his military is far more powerful. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/92 "2014-06-21T22:11:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The negotiations are between the Kurds and Sunnis to cut the central government out of it. . Your entire Civil War II collapses with your own words. Answer this: Are the Kurds siding/negotiating with ISIS Sunni leaders that have seized control of one fifth of Iraq through terror and murder and seek to snatch all of Iraq for their caliphate? Are are the Kurds negotiating with tribal leaders and legitimate leaders from the Sunni areas who will jointly destroy the terrorists in their midst? I’m not seeing where the Kurds have aligned with the terrorists or conspired to start a civil war agsinst the government in Baghdad. Do you think they are? ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/93 "2014-06-21T22:15:39Z")
It dawned on me that even if an independent Kurdistan were to emerge from Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Syria, putting aside the oil, the country is geographically a shitty place-mountainous and land locked. Unlike many on this board, I never bought the argument that Kurds or any other minority in the Middle East were all “good guys”. Not that anyone from anywhere is a bad guy. But Kurds are very tribal and clannish, and their human rights is not very spotless. People in the West tend to be naïve, that any religious or ethnic minority in the Mid East are all sweet victims who are cuddly and lovable. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/94 "2014-06-21T22:20:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Your entire Civil War II collapses with your own words. > > Answer this: Are the Kurds siding/negotiating with ISIS Sunni leaders that have seized control of one fifth of Iraq through terror and murder and seek to snatch all of Iraq for their caliphate? > > Are are the Kurds negotiating with tribal leaders and legitimate leaders from the Sunni areas who will jointly destroy the terrorists in their midst? > I’m not seeing where the Kurds have aligned with the terrorists or conspired to start a civil war agsinst the government in Baghdad. Are the Baathist supporters Iraqis? Are the Baathists supporting/involved with this attack? If both of those are “yes”, then this is civil war. Are any of the tribal leaders Baath supporters? If so then again, yes, the Kurds are negotiating with the “terrorists”. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/95 "2014-06-21T22:22:08Z")
> [@Nema98](#): > > People in the West tend to be naïve, that any religious or ethnic minority in the Mid East are all sweet victims who are cuddly and lovable. Thanks for giving all us sheeple the heads up. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/96 "2014-06-21T22:27:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I don’t know what McCain did or didn’t say, nor do I particularly care since he’s a get, but there are various groups in Syria fighting Assad. Not all of them are on the same page. This group has ties to AQ and is pretty nasty, so I kind of doubt these are the drones McCain was looking for…though it wouldn’t be surprising to me if he is clueless enough to not be able to make a distinction between groups, or to think that all fighting Assad are on the side of the angels. Or something. The other rebels groups have been fighting ISIS in Syria, including other Islamist groups. I doubt ISIS is supported by McCain, in fact he has made the argument that Obama was wrong, that not supporting rebels has not weakened Islamists, in fact ISIS has grown stronger despite U.S apprehension of arming rebels. In many ways this supports the moderate rebels’ claims that they should have been more seriously backed by the U.S. Interestingly, ISIS has now gone into Iraq, a country the U.S has sacrificed so much. This does not make McCain look bad at all, in many ways it makes his argument easier, that Obama’s policy of not fully supporting rebels has not stemmed the tide of terrorist groups, the opposite is happening in front of our eyes. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/97 "2014-06-21T22:35:07Z")
The problem, as usual, is that we weren’t sure where Western support would have ended up. So in “supporting the rebels” in Syria it wasn’t ever going to be simple to cut out the “bad ones”. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/98 "2014-06-21T22:38:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Are the Baathist supporters Iraqis? Are the Baathists supporting/involved with this attack? If both of those are “yes”, then this is civil war. Are any of the tribal leaders Baath supporters? If so then again, yes, the Kurds are negotiating with the “terrorists”. I would assume so, I read in an article two weeks ago that one of Saddam Hussein’s former generals and now head the Baath party, Izzat Douri has made a deal with and is fighting along with Sunni militants. Douri has eluded capture since 2003, and many remnants of the old regime would love to throw out Maliki and reverse the Iraqi govt. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/99 "2014-06-21T22:49:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What would be the advantages to the Kurds of a federalist Iraq as opposed to their current _de facto_ independence? More autonomy and the key point is getting the same autonomy for their Sunni neighboring region. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971/100 "2014-06-21T22:54:40Z")
Do you even hear yourself? More autonomy than they have now which, btw, is basically complete? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-usa-do-in-iraq/690971.md?page=6)