# What should the West do about the present situation in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553 "2014-06-11T18:20:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/181 "2014-06-30T22:03:08Z")
Well, and Greece, Turkey, most of the Balkans, and the Ukraine including the Crimea (river, Putin), etc etc (these guys think big at least)… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/182 "2014-06-30T22:42:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > (these guys think big at least)… Nah, it’s standard Jihadist philosophy: any place ever ruled by Muslims must always be ruled by Muslims. I’m surprised they didn’t include the former Mughal Empire in India. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/183 "2014-06-30T23:14:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Nah, it’s standard Jihadist philosophy: any place ever ruled by Muslims must always be ruled by Muslims. I’m surprised they didn’t include the former Mughal Empire in India. Yup. I figured John’s was kind of tongue in cheek so I was replying in kind. Did you notice how far into Africa they decided was former Islamic? I mean, like a good half of the continent. Poor India…they always seem to get left out. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/184 "2014-06-30T23:48:08Z")
It’s almost like ISIS was custom-designed to unite everyone against them. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/185 "2014-07-01T20:14:18Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Just IMHO, but jets never get the job done. They can inflict pain but - other than nukes and such - can’t wipe out ground forces. If you actually think they’ll ‘wipe out terrorist dens’ you can dissuade yourself of that straightaway. > > Jets, like artillery, support the groundpounders. They can’t replace them. Until infantry goes in, ISIS will never be truly dealt with, and possibly not even then. Have you noticed that 75% of Iraq’s Army remains intact. The value of control of the sky is the view of the battlefield. Large ISIS fornations can be decimated in a hurry with air power. And since many invaded cities are being evacuated - collateral danage to civilian lives will be less of a issue. ISIS has no tax/extortion base in a ghost town being bombed by the legitimate government forces. They are bombing terrorists it should be remembered. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/186 "2014-07-01T22:50:29Z")
[The Sunnis and Kurds have walked out of the Iraqi Parliament.](http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-lawmakers-convene-form-government-battle-caliphate-022027561.html) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/187 "2014-07-01T23:29:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [The Sunnis and Kurds have walked out of the Iraqi Parliament.](http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-lawmakers-convene-form-government-battle-caliphate-022027561.html) So. They did yesterday. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/188 "2014-07-01T23:51:31Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Perhaps they come with a free in country 90 day demonstration on how to light up terrorist white Toyota’s pickips with rocket launchers in the truck bed or a stolen US made Humvee heading across the border into Syria. Good update on the issue; Putin’s Pilots Set to Fly Over Iraq The Daily Beast By Josh Rogin 13 hours ago > [@](#): > > If Russian pilots begin flying attack missions in Iraq, Moscow will be doing the job Iraq Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki first asked of the United States. Russia likely won’t officially acknowledge its pilots’ role, if they do carry out strikes or air support missions for Iraqi government troops. Similarly, in the Syrian civil war, there are unconfirmed reports that pilots from North Korea are flying jets in combat. > **[Putin’s Pilots Set to Fly Over Iraq](https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-pilots-set-fly-over-iraq-094500886--politics.html)** > > Russia may not have boots on the ground in Iraq—yet. But it will have them in the sky; Russian pilots could be flying over Iraq within days. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/189 "2014-07-02T00:07:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I see with reports of mass graves that the blood bath part is fully under way, with ISIL executing prisoners and the government and/or Shia militia returning the favor by executing Sunnis. It’s ugly already, and only going to get uglier. Define ‘uglier’. Is doing what it takes to drive ISIS out of Iraq or kill them an ‘ugly’ turn of events? Do you define ISF and Shiite volunteers taking back Tikrit or defending the mosque in Sammarra to be contributing to the bloodbath? Or is that legitimate self/defense of sovereign Iraq territory? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/190 "2014-07-02T15:11:33Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Define ‘uglier’. Is doing what it takes to drive ISIS out of Iraq or kill them an ‘ugly’ turn of events? Well, reading with comprehension helps if you are trying to wrangle our my esoteric point about how ugly things already are in Iraq, and that it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to predict that they will get uglier. Of course, you’d have to be willing to not try and spin what I’m saying to your own narrative on this whole thing, which, admittedly seems beyond your ability or restraint to do. So, how do I define ‘uglier’? Well, if things are ugly now with ISIL/ISIS doing mass executions and Shia militia groups and or government forces replying in kind by shooting Sunni prisoners, then ‘uglier’ would be more and greater frequencies of such ugly events. Q.E.D. and all that. I know you are gleefully anticipating some sort of macho smack down of the ISIL/ISIS barbarians or some such non-sense, but ‘oing what it takes to drive ISIS out of Iraq or kill them’ essentially means that the blood bath underway is only going to get worse, with atrocities on both sides just escalating the entire situation in a one ups-manship of blood. > [@](#): > > Do you define ISF and Shiite volunteers taking back Tikrit or defending the mosque in Sammarra to be contributing to the bloodbath? Well of course, though that wasn’t the point I was making. Again, reading what I plainly write would be a help. But of course it all contributes to the over all blood bath…unless you are under the impression that these little battles are bloodless. > [@](#): > > Or is that legitimate self/defense of sovereign Iraq territory? I doubt that shooting Sunni prisoners could be spun, even by you, to be ‘legitimate self/defense of sovereign Iraq territory’, which is what my own point was. Of course, you needed me to define what ‘uglier’ was in the context of my own post, so maybe you COULD spin it thus. And regardless, even if everything the Iraqi government and the various Shia militia groups fighting the good and noble fight against the ISIL barbarians is good and right, it’s STILL going to be ugly and a blood bath. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/191 "2014-07-02T15:15:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Good update on the issue; > > Putin’s Pilots Set to Fly Over Iraq > The Daily Beast By Josh Rogin 13 hours ago > > [Putin’s Pilots Set to Fly Over Iraq](http://news.yahoo.com/putin-pilots-set-fly-over-iraq-094500886--politics.html) Why do you think this is a good turn of events? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/192 "2014-07-02T16:06:46Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So. They did yesterday. What’s your point? Not a point, just highly-thread-relevant news. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/193 "2014-07-02T17:25:12Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, how do I define ‘uglier’? Well, if things are ugly now with ISIL/ISIS doing mass executions and Shia militia groups and or government forces replying in kind by shooting Sunni prisoners, then ‘uglier’ would be more and greater frequencies of such ugly events. Is that all that is going on? Mass executions by the IS and government forces executing Sunni prisoners? And is there a solid case the government forces did the killing that you speak of? Is it a matter of government policy? I am quite certain the mass execution of Shiite men on video and proud of it is IS policy. And IS struck first. The uglier scenario for Iraq and the rest of the world is in my view is not destroying IS as fast as it can be done. Or if IS blows up a Holy ancient Mosque full of Shiite worshippers. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/194 "2014-07-02T21:53:54Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Why do you think this is a good turn of events? Just curious. Because it should help the Iraq Government kill and drive out IS faster than waiting for delivery from the US. And I think its good for Russia and US an Iraq and Iran focused on a common threat to the security of that region. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/195 "2014-07-02T23:24:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Is that all that is going on? Mass executions by the IS and government forces executing Sunni prisoners? And is there a solid case the government forces did the killing that you speak of? Is it a matter of government policy? > > I am quite certain the mass execution of Shiite men on video and proud of it is IS policy. > > And IS struck first. > > The uglier scenario for Iraq and the rest of the world is in my view is not destroying IS as fast as it can be done. > > Or if IS blows up a Holy ancient Mosque full of Shiite worshippers. You know, I’m starting to think you could very, very easily have been fooled by W. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/196 "2014-07-03T11:13:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You know, I’m starting to think you could very, very easily have been fooled by W. Fooled by Dubya about what? In what sense? Are you really ‘starting to think’ about this or do you have some substance behind it? It makes no sense. There was no similarity to this years invasion of Iraq by IS and Dubya going in to find WMD that was being accomplished peacefully by UN Inspectors. Are you not aware of that significance difference? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/197 "2014-07-03T13:43:31Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Fooled by Dubya about what? In what sense? Are you really ‘starting to think’ about this or do you have some substance behind it? The substance is that your zealous kill-'em-all rhetoric sounds very neocon. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/198 "2014-07-03T13:47:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The substance is that your zealous kill-'em-all rhetoric sounds very neocon. And of course you can’t “kill them all”. Reminds me of the folks who wanted to nuke the whole Middle East out of existence. When will some people learn that as you “kill them”, more rise up to take their place. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/199 "2014-07-03T14:16:51Z")
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] Is that all that is going on? Mass executions by the IS and government forces executing Sunni prisoners? And is there a solid case the government forces did the killing that you speak of? Is it a matter of government policy? [/QUOTE] Well, they were Sunni prisoners held by the government. [The old cycle is starting up again](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/world/middleeast/sectarian-violence-appears-to-spread-to-streets-of-baghdad.html?_r=0). > [@](#): > > I am quite certain the mass execution of Shiite men on video and proud of it is IS policy. I’m sure they are. > [@](#): > > And IS struck first. I’m sure that will be a lot of comfort to those caught in the middle of escalating violence that I tried to warn you about weeks ago. > [@](#): > > The uglier scenario for Iraq and the rest of the world is in my view is not destroying IS as fast as it can be done. Well, that’s your view. Pure fantasy, of course, since the reality is you can’t kill them all and that the violence and terror are just winding up…again…and once the Shia militia, like your buddy Sadr get fully stuck in it’s going to be ugly beyond belief, with atrocity on top of atrocity. > [@](#): > > Because it should help the Iraq Government kill and drive out IS faster than waiting for delivery from the US. And I think its good for Russia and US an Iraq and Iran focused on a common threat to the security of that region. When the US was there and we used air power, what was the usual result? Do you think that the Russians will do better?? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/200 "2014-07-03T23:50:07Z")
> [@XT](#): > > When the US was there and we used air power, what was the usual result? Well, it did do some good in Libya. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553.md?page=11)