# What should the West do about the present situation in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553 "2014-06-11T18:20:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/101 "2014-06-14T03:37:12Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um, sure. And if you want to see the levels of blood shed and sectarian violence one ups-man-ship seen in Afghanistan after the Soviets tucked tail then that’s probably exactly the sort of rat fuck you’d get by letting the various militias off the leash and off the reservation with no limit on their bag count. > > This is going to be brutal and ugly, but you almost seem gleeful at the prospect of adding more to it. So, we’ll have MULTIPLE blood thirsty militia/terrorist groups to counter balance each other…sounds like a great plan! Nothing ‘gleeful here’ seemingly or otherwise. Try to constrain yourself. Iraq has been brutal and ugly for a long time: One Iraqi Family except the mother and wife were numbers 58 through 61 killed in the US and UK invasion of Iraq. 058 Salma Amin 50 Mansour district, Baghdad 8 Apr 2003 059 Mohammed Amin 27 (son of Salma) Mansour district, Baghdad 8 Apr 2003 060 Said Amin 24 (son of Salma) Mansour district, Baghdad 8 Apr 2003 061 Shams Amin 20 (daughter of Salma) Mansour district, Baghdad 8 Apr 2003 The Pentagon reported on 7 April that .A B2 bomber dropped four 2000-pound laser-guided GBU-24 bunker-buster bombs on the Al Saa Restaurant in the al Mansour District of Baghdad that Intelligence sources claimed was a meeting place of Saddam Hussein, his two sons, and senior Iraqi regime leaders. “_When the broken body of the 20-year-old woman was brought out – torso first, then the head – her mother started crying uncontrollably, then collapsed.”_ That must be Shams Amin, daughter of Salma Amin and sister to Mohammed and Said Amin, who were all killed by the four 2000 lb BGU bunker buster bombs inside or near the Al Saa Restaurant in the Mansour District of Baghdad, Iraq on April 7 2003. Ugly. and then we couldn’t count the victims by name anymore… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/102 "2014-06-14T04:22:33Z")
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] Try to constrain yourself. [/QUOTE] Certainly. In exchange for me not telling you in scathing detail what I think of your plan to unleash the likes of Sadr and his merry band into the mix, or why having another group of blood thirsty and vengeance filled militia mobilized and giving a hunting license (what do you suppose the probable outcome will be on the civilian Sunni population when Shia militia groups are turned loose? Or are you under the impression that groups like this only fight enemy combatants with occasional collateral damage happening??) I want you to try and actually read, with comprehension, what I write, and give a response that has some semblance to the points being made, instead of zooming off in directions the align with your desire for spin. Do we have a deal? > [@](#): > > Iraq has been brutal and ugly for a long time: > > One Iraqi Family except the mother and wife were numbers 58 through 61 killed in the US and UK invasion of Iraq. > > 058 Salma Amin 50 Mansour district, Baghdad 8 Apr 2003 > > 059 Mohammed Amin 27 (son of Salma) Mansour district, Baghdad 8 Apr 2003 > > 060 Said Amin 24 (son of Salma) Mansour district, Baghdad 8 Apr 2003 > > 061 Shams Amin 20 (daughter of Salma) Mansour district, Baghdad 8 Apr 2003 > The Pentagon reported on 7 April that .A B2 bomber dropped four 2000-pound laser-guided GBU-24 bunker-buster bombs on the Al Saa Restaurant in the al Mansour District of Baghdad that Intelligence sources claimed was a meeting place of Saddam Hussein, his two sons, and senior Iraqi regime leaders. > > “When the broken body of the 20-year-old woman was brought out – torso first, then the head – her mother started crying uncontrollably, then collapsed.” > > That must be Shams Amin, daughter of Salma Amin and sister to Mohammed and Said Amin, who were all killed by the four 2000 lb BGU bunker buster bombs inside or near the Al Saa Restaurant in the Mansour District of Baghdad, Iraq on April 7 2003. Yes, very tragic. Has zero to do with my own point, however, which was about the wisdom of your plan to arm and unleash Sadr. Please try and stay on topic. We aren’t refighting the Iraq war here. It’s not a thread on the US invasion of Iraq. I’m not speaking to what happened during that invasion here. I know it’s something you want to discuss in pretty much every thread you are in (unless you are wanting to put a good spin on the Russia and rebel groups in Eastern Ukraine…I have to admit, that seems to be the one topic that can distract you from rehashing the US invasion of Iraq), but it’s got nothing to do with my own point. > [@](#): > > Ugly. and then we couldn’t count the victims by name anymore… Yes, very dramatic. What do you think is the probable outcome of unleashing Shia militia groups into the current situation? You figure there will be less innocent (and otherwise) victims? Can you explain your logic there? Will they be countable? Does that make it better? > [@](#): > > I’m not saying he’s the best judge. I’m interested in hearing his views on the matter today. Why? What’s his opinion got to do with anything? > [@](#): > > I’m saying he’s a better judge of what’s needed than John McCain, Lindsay Graham or Rush Limbaugh at least because he is an Iraq and a an Iraqi nationalist. Strawman. WHEN SOMEONE FUCKING BRINGS UP MCCAIN, GRAHM OR LIMBAUGH THEN YOU CAN BAT AT THAT POSITION. No one has, however. Let me be clear here…I don’t give a flying fuck what any of them have to say on this matter. I don’t give a rats ass if Sadr’s opinion is superior to theirs since I don’t care what their opinions are on this. Tell me why you think Sadr has anything meaningful to say. > [@](#): > > Here’s what caught my eye on Sadr and Petraeus in 2007. Wow…so, did you realize that 2007 was, like, 7 years ago now? And that the US was basically making a devils bargain there, picking the lesser of two weevils? Is that what you base your opinion that it would be a good idea to arm and turn him and his group loose into the current rat fuck? You think this will improve the situation??? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/103 "2014-06-14T04:34:35Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Certainly. In exchange for me not telling you in scathing detail what I think of your plan to unleash the likes of Sadr and his merry band into the mix, or why having another group of blood thirsty and vengeance filled militia mobilized and giving a hunting license (what do you suppose the probable outcome will be on the civilian Sunni population when Shia militia groups are turned loose? Sadr’s militia is not on my leash or on any leash held by any government outside of Iraq. So your premise is false. Rewrite the question keeping it accurate and a deal could be in the making. Sadr’s going at these invaders. The ugliest outcome comes in my mind if the Mahdi Army and better units in the Iraqi Army can’t drive them out of Iraq’s cities … some where Shiite Shrines have stood for ages. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/104 "2014-06-14T05:31:19Z")
[quote=“XT, post:102, topic:690553”] Why? What’s his opinion got to do with anything? /QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Withdrawal from politics of disillusioned Shia leader Muqtada al-Sadr will only add to Iraq’s political turmoil - but he may not officially retire > > Patrick Cockburn Monday 17 February 2014 [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/withdrawal-from-politics-of-disillusioned-shia-leader-muqtada-alsadr-will-only-add-to-iraqs-political-turmoil--but-he-may-not-officially-retire-9134614.htmlou](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/withdrawal-from-politics-of-disillusioned-shia-leader-muqtada-alsadr-will-only-add-to-iraqs-political-turmoil--but-he-may-not-officially-retire-9134614.htmlou) Sadr has been a sectarian unifier for since 2007. [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/04/iraqi-shiite-cleric-al-sadr-visits-church-sunni-mosque-as-anti-government/](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/04/iraqi-shiite-cleric-al-sadr-visits-church-sunni-mosque-as-anti-government/) Iraqi Shiite cleric al-Sadr visits church, Sunni mosque as anti-government protests rage Published January 04, 2013 ·Associated Press Several key excerpts from that link and headline: > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD – Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr reached out to Iraq’s religious minorities Friday, visiting a Baghdad church desecrated in a deadly 2010 attack as well as a prominent Sunni mosque as public opposition spread against his rival, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. > > The anti-U.S. cleric’s stops at the holy sites — a rare public appearance by al-Sadr outside predominantly Shiite parts of Iraq — came as tens of thousands of primarily Sunni protesters angry over perceived second-class treatment rallied to maintain pressure against al-Maliki’s Shiite-led government The Protesters in the first line are SUNNI. > [@](#): > > Al-Sadr, who has voiced support for the **protesters** , appears to be trying to capitalize on the political turmoil by attempting to portray himself as a unifying figure ahead of provincial elections in the spring. He spoke up for the Sunni protesters’ right to demonstrate earlier this week, and echoed that sentiment again Friday. > > “We support the demands of the people, but I urge them to safeguard Iraq’s unity,” he said. > > Wearing his signature black cloak and turban, the cleric said he visited the Our Lady of Salvation church to express sorrow at the attack and send a message of peace to Iraq’s dwindling Christian community, which is estimated to number about 400,000 to 600,000. Sadr has long stood up for Iraq’s Christians. He’s been working on gaining more trust with the Sunni. Sadr is an Iraq nationalist, He could bridge the Sunni Shia divide in Iraq. > [@](#): > > After visiting the church, al-Sadr’s heavily protected convoy made its way to the Abdul-Qadir al-Gailani mosque, one of Baghdad’s most prominent Sunni places of worship, shortly before midday Friday prayers. > > As he entered the mosque, one worshipper called out that he is “the unifier of Sunnis and Shiites.” Another hailed him as “the patriot, the patriot.” Women in the courtyard ululated and showered him with candy on the way out. Sadr’s opinion has a lot to do with everything going on today. He is also a religious leader as well as politician and former resistance fighter to the US occupation of his country. I respect his opinion. He’s a an Iraqi. A very influential Iraqi who has fought for Iraq unity for all. > [@](#): > > Somebody asked His Eminence Sayd Muqtada al-Sadr about the attacks that affect the Iraqi people. > > His Eminence replied: > > “Peace be upon Iraq’s Christians and peace be upon Iraq’s Sunni and peace be upon the Shia of Iraq and peace be upon Iraq’s minorities” > > “It is not enough to denounce and condemn the attacks affecting them. The hand of terrorism targeted all components and communities of Iraq to make a discord among them and foster a spirit of sectarianism to kill the innocent spirits” > > “I even after condemnation and denunciation advise and guide Iraqis to show them what the religion and patriotism want from them” > > “Religiously, Allah said in the holy Qur’an: (Indeed this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me) Al-‘Anbya’ 92; All religions worship Him, even our beloved Christians, so we have to protect them” > > “I congratulate them in the occasion of the Jesus’s birth, who will be with our waited Imam(the Savior) to liberate the human beings from the oppression and arrogance, and I give my condolences to them and me for the explosion of Najat church” > > “I also give my condolences to families of martyrs that martyred on the way of Imam Husain’s visit” [http://jawabna.com/en/index.php/statements/3055-sayd-muqtada-al-sadr-peace-be-upon-iraq-s-christians-and-sunni.html](http://jawabna.com/en/index.php/statements/3055-sayd-muqtada-al-sadr-peace-be-upon-iraq-s-christians-and-sunni.html) I don’t think you understand the religious order of Iraq’s society. Here’s another highly revered religious authority that you should know his opinions: Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani > [@](#): > > Sistani issues call to arms against Iraq ISIL militants > > Friday, 13 June 2014 12:27 Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani called Iraqis Friday to take up arms against the foreign backed militants who have overrun swathes of the country after launching a major offensive. > > “Citizens who are able to bear arms and fight terrorists, defending their country and their people and their holy places, should volunteer and join the security forces to achieve this holy purpose,” his representative announced on his behalf during Friday prayers in the city of Karbala. > > The Grand Ayatollah made the call to arms as so called Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) foreign backed terrorists continue to commit crimes against Iraqi people including Shiites, Sunnis and Christians. > > He had earlier called for all of the country’s political factions to unite against the insurgency in a statement released which condemned the capture of Nineveh province. I’m not sure you know what Shiites in Iraq should do. Do you have any ideas about what they should do? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/105 "2014-06-14T05:40:37Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Strawman. WHEN SOMEONE FUCKING BRINGS UP MCCAIN, GRAHM OR LIMBAUGH THEN YOU CAN BAT AT THAT POSITION. ?? McCain stood on the floor of the Senate telling the world who’s to blame for what’s happening in Iraq and the solution is air strikes … bombing and more air strikes. Condemning references or protests against that politically driven sore loser argument as you feel the need to do makes no sense. Of course we should discuss what national leaders and hate talk jocks have to say. Why not? Why ridicule and harass some aspect of the debate that you don’t like? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/106 "2014-06-14T12:09:01Z")
I’m against intervention but I do think Obama could have okayed a little air support [to aid in the rescue of besieged US contractors.](http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/200-u-s-contractors-surrounded-by-jihadists-in-iraq/) > [@](#): > > The U.S. contractors were at Balad to help the Pentagon prepare the facilities for the delivery of the F-16 aircraft the Obama administration has agreed to provide the Iraqi government. > > The surrounded Americans said they were under ISIS fire from small arms, AK47s and rocket propelled grenades, or RPGs. > > WND learned from sources that the jihadists closed down escape routes, and the U.S. Air Force was in a stand-down position. U.S. forces were not assisting even with air cover so a private extradition flight could land for a rescue, the sources said. These were guys directly employed by the Pentagon. Fortunately the Iraqis got them out of harm’s way, their heads might have been adorning the roadsides otherwise. The President should have given a little help, we’re not talking ground invasion here. Sometimes Obama reminds me of a rabbit caught in the headlights, totally transfixed by events. He seemed far more sage and statesmanlike talking about the Arab Spring and his Russian reset. How long ago that all seems and how naive it all sounds now. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Fornicator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Fornicator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fornicator)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/107 "2014-06-14T12:16:38Z")
and believe me, contractors know exactly how to play that game. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/108 "2014-06-14T15:29:05Z")
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] Sadr has been a sectarian unifier for since 2007. [/QUOTE] Ah, well, let’s take a look at the Wiki page on him then: > [@](#): > > 2007 > > On February 13, several sources in the U.S. government claimed that Muqtada al-Sadr had left Iraq and fled to Iran in anticipation of the coming security crackdown.[25] US military spokesman Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell reinforced this account on February 14,[26] but a member of Iraq’s parliament and an aide to al-Sadr have denied the claims.[25][27] > > On March 30, it was reported that Sadr, through clerics speaking on his behalf, “delivered a searing speech…condemning the American presence in Iraq … [and] call[ing] for an anti-occupation mass protest on April 9…”[28] This call to protest was significant in that, since the beginning of the American troop surge (which began on February 14, 2007), Sadr had ordered his “militia to lie low during the new Baghdad security plan so as not to provoke a direct confrontation with the Americans”.[28] > > Muqtada al-Sadr urged the Iraqi army and police to stop cooperating with the United States and told his guerrilla fighters to concentrate on pushing American forces out of the country, according to a statement issued Sunday, April 8, 2007. > > The statement, stamped with al-Sadr’s official seal, was distributed in the Shiite holy city of Najaf on Sunday 8 April 2007—a day before a large demonstration there, called for by al-Sadr, to mark the fourth anniversary of the fall of Baghdad. > > “You, the Iraqi army and police forces, don’t walk alongside the occupiers, because they are your arch-enemy”, the statement said. > > On April 17, 2007, several ministers loyal to al-Sadr left the Iraqi government. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki stated that the withdrawal of these ministers had not weakened his government and that he would name technocrats to replace them soon.[29] > > On April 25, 2007, al-Sadr condemned the construction of Azamiyah wall around a Sunni neighborhood in Baghdad, by calling for demonstrations against the plan as a sign of “the evil will” of American “occupiers” > > On May 25, 2007, al-Sadr delivered a sermon to an estimated 6,000 followers in Kufa. Sadr reiterated his condemnation of the United States’ occupation of Iraq and demanded the withdrawal of foreign forces, al-Sadr’s speech also contained calls for unity between Sunni and Shi’a.[30] In June 2007, al-Sadr vowed to go ahead with a planned march to the devastated Askariyya shrine in central Iraq, al-Sadr said the march was aimed at bringing Shi’is and Sunnis closer together and breaking down the barriers imposed by the Americans and Sunni religious extremists. > > In a statement issued August 29, 2007, Muqtada al-Sadr announced that an order to stand down for six months had been distributed to his loyalists following the deaths of more than 50 Shia Muslim pilgrims during fighting in Karbala the day before. The statement issued by Sadr’s office in Najaf said: “I direct the Mahdi army to suspend all its activities for six months until it is restructured in a way that helps honour the principles for which it is formed.” The intention behind the ceasefire was thought in part to be to allow al-Sadr reassert control over the movement, which is thought to have splintered. “We call on all Sadrists to observe self-restraint, to help security forces control the situation and arrest the perpetrators and sedition mongers, and urge them to end all forms of armament in the sacred city”, said the statement, referring to the August 28 clashes in Karbala. Asked if the unexpected order meant no attacks on American troops, as well as a ban on Shia infighting, a senior al-Sadr aide said: “All kinds of armed actions are to be frozen, without exception.”[31] > 2008 > > In March 2008 during the Battle of Basra, the Sadr Movement launched a nationwide civil disobedience campaign across Iraq to protest raids and detentions against the Mahdi Army.[32] > > In August 2008, al-Sadr ordered most of his militiamen to disarm but said he will maintain elite fighting units to resist the Americans if a timetable for the withdrawal of US troops is not established. “Weapons are to be exclusively in the hands of one group, the resistance group”, while another group called Momahidoun is to focus on social, religious and community work, Sadrist cleric Mudhafar al-Moussawi said.[33] > 2009 > > In response to Israeli attacks on Gaza, al-Sadr called for reprisals against US troops in Iraq: “I call upon the honest Iraqi resistance to carry out revenge operations against the great accomplice of the Zionist enemy.” > > On May 1, 2009, al-Sadr paid a surprise visit to Ankara where, in his first public appearance for two years, he met with Turkish President Abdullah Gül and Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan for talks which focused on the “political process”[34] and requested Turkey play a greater role in establishing stability in the Middle East. Spokesman Sheikh Salah al-Obeidi confirmed the nature of the talks that had been requested by al-Sadr and stated, “Turkey is a good, old friend. Trusting that, we had no hesitation in travelling here.”[35] After the meeting al-Sadr visited supporters in Istanbul, where al-Obeidi says they may open a representative office. > 2010 > > In a press conference on 6 March 2010 ahead of the Iraqi parliamentary election, 2010, Muqtada al-Sadr called on all Iraqis to participate in the election and support those who seek to expel US troops out of the country. Al-Sadr warned that any interference by the United States will be unacceptable. Al-Sadr, who has thousands of staunch followers across Iraq has consistently opposed the presence of foreign forces and repeatedly called for an immediate end to the occupation of Iraq.[36][37] > 2011 > > On January 5, 2011, Muqtada al-Sadr returned to the Iraqi city of Najaf, in order to take a more proactive and visible role in the new Iraqi government.[38] Three days later, thousands of Iraqis turned out in Najaf to hear his first speech since his return, in which he called the US, Israel, and the UK “common enemies” against Iraq. His speech was greeted by the crowd chanting “Yes, yes for Muqtada! Yes, yes for the leader!”, whilst waving Iraqi flags and al-Sadr’s pictures. Subsequently, he returned to Iran to continue his studies.[39] > > By late 2011, it appeared that the United States would largely withdraw from Iraq, a demand that helped make Sadr a popular leader amongst supporters almost immediately following the invasion. Sadr also controlled the largest bloc of parliament, and had reached a sort of détente with prime minister Nouri al Maliki, who needed Sadrist support to retain his post.[40] Let’s see, what about this? > [@](#): > > Post-U.S Withdraw > > Following the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, al-Sadr continued to be an influential figure in Iraqi politics, associated with the Al-Ahrar bloc, whose Shi’a factions are still at war with not only the government but also the Sunni factions.[41] However, whereas during the war al-Sadr was known for advocating violence, in 2012 he began to present himself as a proponent of moderation and tolerance and called for peace.[42][43] > > On February 18, 2014 The young cleric announced in a handwritten note posted on his movement’s website Sunday that he was immediately withdrawing from politics and dissolving the party structure to protect his family’s reputation. “I announce the closure of all offices and libraries in all religious, social and political fields,” the note read. “There is no (political) bloc that represents us from now on nor do we hold any positions inside or outside the government or parliament.” Seems he’s been successful in convincing folks like you that he’s a moderate and man of peace at least. It’s Putin all over again with you, isn’t it? Do you have any cites of Sunni who are happy with the prospect of this guy shouldering into the fight? Do you really, honestly believe that if Sadr and guys like him and the militia units he commands get fully involved that this thing won’t completely spin out of control? That there won’t be massacres of civilians on both sides that further escalate the violence and killing? What would make you believe that this WON’T happen?? > [@](#): > > I’m not sure you know what Shiites in Iraq should do. Do you have any ideas about what they should do? But I’m VERY sure that you don’t have a clue what you are asking for or what the ramifications will certainly be. Guess we’ll find out because your buddy Sadr is certainly going to be in the thick of things. After the massive blood shed it will either be a totalitarian fundamentalist Sunni government in charge or an equally totalitarian fundamentalist Shia government in charge. I’m sure you will be happy. As to what I think they should do, I’d say the current governments best bet is to ask the West for aid and assistance and try and keep their own madmen and militia on a leash…a very, very short leash. Because if those guys are turned loose they will have multiple packs of rabid dogs going at each others throats and tearing up anything in between them that gets in the way. > [@](#): > > Sadr’s militia is not on my leash or on any leash held by any government outside of Iraq. So your premise is false. Rewrite the question keeping it accurate and a deal could be in the making. Sadr’s going at these invaders. The ugliest outcome comes in my mind if the Mahdi Army and better units in the Iraqi Army can’t drive them out of Iraq’s cities … some where Shiite Shrines have stood for ages. No, your ability to read and comprehend what I’m saying seems to be at fault here. > [@](#): > > McCain stood on the floor of the Senate telling the world who’s to blame for what’s happening in Iraq and the solution is air strikes … bombing and more air strikes. Did I bring up McCain? Did I mention McCain? Has anyone mentioned him? What’s whatever he had to say got to do with anything I’ve written? > [@](#): > > Condemning references or protests against that politically driven sore loser argument as you feel the need to do makes no sense. I make no sense to you because you are incapable of actually reading what others say and responding to that without trying to put spin on everything and without trying to bring up irrelevant horseshit that you think helps you poison the well. You bring up McCain and the right wingers because you figure you can associate me with their crazy crap in an effort to do that well poisoning. It’s a strawman argument but you will stubbornly stick with it in the same way you did over and over again in the other threads I’ve had the misfortune to attempt to debate with you. It’s your standard MO in all of these things. > [@](#): > > Of course we should discuss what national leaders and hate talk jocks have to say. Why not? Why ridicule and harass some aspect of the debate that you don’t like? Discuss away, but don’t bring them up in relation to my own posts unless I bring them up. As I said, I don’t give a rats ass what McCain had to say and you telling me what he said has nothing to do with the posts of mine you are quoting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/109 "2014-06-14T16:55:04Z")
[Who lost Iraq?](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-who-lost-iraq-the-iraqis-did-with-an-assist-from-george-w-bush/2014/06/12/35c5a418-f25c-11e3-914c-1fbd0614e2d4_story.html) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/110 "2014-06-14T18:02:41Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Ah, well, let’s take a look at the Wiki page on him then: > > Let’s see, what about this? Is there something in all that text that contains an argument or point? If not ‘what about it’. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/111 "2014-06-14T18:26:47Z")
Check XT’s sermon on bringing up McCain. I brought up McCain in response to XT’s bogus rationalization that I am saying Sadr was the ‘best judge’ of what to do in Iraq. Here is the exchange: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by XT I’m good with the US staying out of this thing, but I’m not sure Sadr’s the best judge of what’s needed. > > I’m not saying he’s the best judge. I’m interested in hearing his views on the matter today. > > I’m saying he’s a better judge of what’s needed than John McCain, Lindsay Graham or Rush Limbaugh at least because he is an Iraq and a an Iraqi nationalist. I try to give XT someone to compare to because XT tried to define my position that Sadr is the ‘best judge’. That is not how I see it. He’s better than McCain but not the best. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/112 "2014-06-14T18:29:13Z")
> [@The\_Fornicator](#): > > and believe me, contractors know exactly how to play that game. Yeah, not to sound cold-hearted, but contractors are highly paid, highly trained ex-military mercs with their own highly paid highly trained security. The reason they’re over there making boatloads of tax-free cash is because they know the risks, and it isn’t really the US military’s job to be over there holding their hands. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/113 "2014-06-14T19:21:22Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I’m against intervention but I do think Obama could have okayed a little air support [to aid in the rescue of besieged US contractors.](http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/200-u-s-contractors-surrounded-by-jihadists-in-iraq/) > > These were guys directly employed by the Pentagon. _\_ [Hmmm](http://iraq.usembassy.gov/consular/us/resources/security_companies.html). > [@](#): > > Description of Services: > Sallyport Global Services provides full spectrum integrated security and protective solutions to include Protective Security Detail (PSD) mobile security services, Static Security Guard Services, Secure Villas and Compounds with CCTV and other electronic security measures, risk assessments, threat analysis, contingency planning, emergency services training and other risk mitigation training. Sallyport has provided Protective Security Services throughout Iraq since 2004. We have an office in Baghdad and a permanent presence in Iraq. Sounds like another bunch of mercenary thugs like Blackwater; we do like using “contractor” as a euphemism for such people. Probably rapists, torturers and murderers like Blackwater too. Which is why we call such people “contractors” of course; it whips up outrage better when the headline says “Insurgents hang a dozen US contractors” than if it reads “Resistance fighters hang a dozen US backed mercenaries for rape and murder”. It makes them sound like they are plumbers or carpenters or something else harmless. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/114 "2014-06-14T19:26:52Z")
Thank-you for selecting JM Marketing Consultants for your Foreign Contracting Business. We’ve come up with 2 names for your business that we think will convey an image of strength, stability and with more than a hint of ruthlessness: 1. Blackwater 2. Sallyport Which one do you gentlemen prefer? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/115 "2014-06-14T19:27:40Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > > [@Sage Rat](#): > > > > Sage Rat View Post > > I never thought Bush seemed bright enough nor strong enough to accomplish much good. If he attacks a country ruled by a guy who killed a million of his own people, I can live with that. And I would have voted (if I had voted) for him in his last election, just to see that Iraq wasn’t abandoned. > > Sorry, it may not be possible to discuss the best way forward for US involvement in Iraq today with someone who may still believe that Bush attacked (in violation of international law) Iraq because Saddam killed a million of his own people. > > But being ok with an attack on a sovereign nation ordered by someone not considered to be bright enough to accomplish much good seems to be illogical to me. You’re quoting me from nine years ago, in another thread? While I’m happy for the interest, you might want to consider how much time you’re spending on the internet. But to answer your surprise, the logic is that if what you have now is horrible, then change is good. Change might end up back at horrible, but it was the chance for something better. And no I don’t believe that Bush conquered Iraq because he cared about what Saddam had done. I think he did it, because propping up Saddam as the ring leader helped to deflect from the fact that he couldn’t find Osama (you can find quotes from the time period of me saying that, probably) and because he felt like he could correct the political failure of his dad’s by finishing the job. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/116 "2014-06-14T19:34:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But to answer your surprise, the logic is that if what you have now is horrible, then change is good. Change might end up back at horrible, but it was the chance for something better. “We destroyed the village in order to save it”. For their own good we mass murdered them, tortured them, destroyed their infrastructure and social order and left them with chaos and misery. Yay, we’re heroes! :rolleyes: > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And no I don’t believe that Bush conquered Iraq because he cared about what Saddam had done. I think he did it, because propping up Saddam as the ring leader helped to deflect from the fact that he couldn’t find Osama (you can find quotes from the time period of me saying that, probably) and because he felt like he could correct the political failure of his dad’s by finishing the job. He didn’t want to find Osama. He kept trying to call the hunt for Osma off. It’s not a coincidence we only got him after Bush was out of office and couldn’t run interference for Osama anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/117 "2014-06-14T19:40:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “We destroyed the village in order to save it”. For their own good we mass murdered them, tortured them, destroyed their infrastructure and social order and left them with chaos and misery. > > Yay, we’re heroes! :rolleyes: > > He didn’t want to find Osama. He kept trying to call the hunt for Osma off. > > It’s not a coincidence we only got him after Bush was out of office and couldn’t run interference for Osama anymore. You might want to note that when I talk, I say things like “I believe”, “I think”, “as I understand it”, and so on. Unfortunately, that’s the highest I go. Your omnipotence defeats me. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/118 "2014-06-14T19:48:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Notfooledbyw: I’m not sure you know what Shiites in Iraq should do. Do you have any ideas about what they should do? > [@XT](#): > > But I’m VERY sure that you don’t have a clue what you are asking for or what the ramifications will certainly be. Guess we’ll find out because your buddy Sadr is certainly going to be in the thick of things. After the massive blood shed it will either be a totalitarian fundamentalist Sunni government in charge or an equally totalitarian fundamentalist Shia government in charge. I’m sure you will be happy If the Sadr ‘madman’ militia engages the Sunni terrorists invading Iraq, your two suggested outcomes are, “it will either be a totalitarian fundamentalist Sunni government in charge or an equally totalitarian fundamentalist Shia” government in charge." You really don’t know much about Iraq do you? Have you heard of the Anbar Uprising? Iraq is more likely to end up partioned than one sect taking over all of Iraq ever again. The Shiites have no cause to end up ‘totalitarian Shiite fundamentalist’ in place of how they are now. Ali Sistani and Sadr are quite established in accepting a moderate form of Islamic government and have demonstrated that through the years. You are off. The worst that could happen in a Sunni partition would be the Iraqi born Sunni warlord hierarchy would be exterminated by the foreign jihadist terrorists. If they survive I don’t see your totalitarian Islamist regime taking root in Anbar and areas to the north. The Anbar uprising is precedent for that. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/119 "2014-06-14T20:11:44Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No need to overthink what you think my position might be. > > You chose to use the words ‘significantly to blame’ so I asked you (How is Obama to blame for the history of the Iraqi people.) You said he is to blame significantly for the history of the Iraqi people since 2009. Can you explain why you think that? For the reasons I stated. Regardless of whether you would like it to be true or not, he was a man with the power and reasons to influence the history of Iraq after 2009. Regardless of what choices he made - to do what he thinks he had the legal right to do, to do what he thinks he had the moral right to do, or whatever - those are choices that are meaningful at a (Iraqi) national level. The significance of his impact on Iraq might be that he did nothing, because he felt that he had no right to do anything. I’m not saying that his choices were good or bad, in regards to how he handled Iraq. _My sole point was that people have the right to discuss whether Obama’s choices helped or hindered Iraq,_ because regardless of what he did or didn’t do, doing and not doing both influenced the fate of the Iraqi people. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/120 "2014-06-14T20:47:24Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The significance of his impact on Iraq might be that he did nothing, because he felt that he had no right to do anything. I’m not saying that his choices were good or bad, in regards to how he handled Iraq. _My sole point was that people have the right to discuss whether Obama’s choices helped or hindered Iraq,_ because regardless of what he did or didn’t do, doing and not doing both influenced the fate of the Iraqi people. You used the word blame in the original. That does not appear to be your message right now. Is that correct? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553.md?page=7)