# What should the West do about the present situation in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553 "2014-06-11T18:20:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/121 "2014-06-14T20:53:23Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You used the word blame in the original. That does not appear to be your message right now. Is that correct? Blame: To assign responsibility for something bad. As I understand it, badness has happened. That lead to the creation of the thread. Apportioning shares of responsibility seems reasonable. I think you’re overthinking your objection. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/122 "2014-06-14T21:15:37Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > You might want to note that when I talk, I say things like “I believe”, “I think”, “as I understand it”, and so on. Unfortunately, that’s the highest I go. Your omnipotence defeats me. Don’t be silly. The fact that what we did to Iraq would get lots of people killed and result in disaster was extremely obvious from the beginning, which is why it took an idiot like Bush to do it. I just noted the obvious, as did essentially everyone else in the _world_ who wasn’t willfully ignoring reality. And the fact that slaughter and destruction and torture all hurt the people subjected to them is even _more_ obvious. Also, you confuse omniscience and omnipotence. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/123 "2014-06-14T21:23:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Don’t be silly. The fact that what we did to Iraq would get lots of people killed and result in disaster was extremely obvious from the beginning, which is why it took an idiot like Bush to do it. I just noted the obvious, as did essentially everyone else in the _world_ who wasn’t willfully ignoring reality. And the fact that slaughter and destruction and torture all hurt the people subjected to them is even _more_ obvious. My point was that you weren’t making an argument, you were just spouting a bunch of dogma. But yes, war does cause death. That’s clearly why no one should ever participate in a war, revolution, assassination or commit any harmful act, regardless of whether others are holding to that same rules or not. And hey, maybe you really are a complete pacifist but I’m not. If I have to snipe a guy who has two children at gun point, I’m going to snipe him. If you think that’s bad and evil, then we’re going to have to agree to disagree, as there’s no coming to terms with our relative positions. Is it? > [@](#): > > Also, you confuse omniscience and omnipotence. True. I meant the right one, wrote the wrong one. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/124 "2014-06-14T22:52:15Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Regardless of whether you would like it to be true or not, he was a man with the power and reasons to influence the history of Iraq after 2009. I have no dispute with your statement’s use of the word ‘influence’. I don’t agree however that Obama had the power and reasons to ‘control’ or try to control the history of Iraq after 2009. He does not have the power to control and stop all or many of the potential ‘bad outcomes’ eminating from the godawful cataclysmic US attempt to ‘control’ Iraq’s history going forward with the assault and unprepared occupation of Iraq in March 2003. For one thing we ran out of endless blood and treasure to guarantee some kind of good outcome that would satisfy the proponents of that invasion. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/125 "2014-06-14T23:26:49Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Blame: To assign responsibility for something bad. Who assigned or assigns ‘responsibility’ or any portion thereof to Obama(a) for the Jihadist assault on cities in Iraq? Or (b) the Iraqi forces cutting and running? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/126 "2014-06-15T00:22:22Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Blame: To assign responsibility for something bad. > > As I understand it, badness has happened. That lead to the creation of the thread. > > Apportioning shares of responsibility seems reasonable. > > I think you’re overthinking your objection. Thus thread was created asking what the West should do? I say Obama got it right in his news conference. Read the undistorted version when you get a chance. Ultimately this problem must be ultimately resolved by Iraqis. They are a soveriegn nation. Air Strikes should only be used if it is determined to be in our national security interests and Iraqis demonstrate an effort to do what needs to be done on the ground and in the political arena. Responsibility for the current bad happening goes to the Administrations that toppled the government of Iraq by bombing and ground invasion. That responsibility did not dissolve in January 2009 because that term in office ended. So if you can demonstrate that the current administration engaged in actions that prompted the invasion of Iraq by terrorists from Syria this past week - you should go ahead and do so. Had Bush not launched the invasion in 2003 and allowed the inspections to continue and the truth of no hidden WMD to be found then Bush would not be responsible for the disaster in Iraq. Do you see how that works? Actions have consequences. Twenty twenty hindsight and speculation about what may have prevented something bad from happening is not a legitimate it reasonable way to assign blame. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/127 "2014-06-15T00:26:04Z")
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] If the Sadr ‘madman’ militia engages the Sunni terrorists invading Iraq, your two suggested outcomes are, “it will either be a totalitarian fundamentalist Sunni government in charge or an equally totalitarian fundamentalist Shia” government in charge." You really don’t know much about Iraq do you? Have you heard of the Anbar Uprising? [/QUOTE] You mean like my Afghanistan example I used earlier? Like that? No, I never thought of that. You are truly brilliant. 😛 > [@](#): > > Iraq is more likely to end up partioned than one sect taking over all of Iraq ever again. The Shiites have no cause to end up ‘totalitarian Shiite fundamentalist’ in place of how they are now. Ali Sistani and Sadr are quite established in accepting a moderate form of Islamic government and have demonstrated that through the years. You are off. You mean like my suggestion in other threads about partitioning? Like that? Yeah, I’m off because I never, ever would have thought of that. And my, won’t it be SO much more preferable to have internecine warfare between tribal and sectarian groups in Iraq than what they have had already! What a brilliant suggestion you had to get more militia groups armed to the teeth and out there killing! Probably make the Troubles in Ireland seem like a picnic, no doubt. > [@](#): > > The worst that could happen in a Sunni partition would be the Iraqi born Sunni warlord hierarchy would be exterminated by the foreign jihadist terrorists. If they survive I don’t see your totalitarian Islamist regime taking root in Anbar and areas to the north. No, sadly the worst thing that could happen would be your (gleeful IMHO) suggestion on what the Iraqis should do…and, gods help them, that’s probably what will actually happen. Guess we can sit back and watch the moderates like Sadr handle things, right? Yeah, that’s going to work out well for the Iraqis, I’m sure. At any rate, the thread is about what the west should do, and your suggestion is they should stay out of it and watch it devolve into another Syria. That’s a fair (if unimaginative) argument, so, again, why don’t you just stick to that? > [@](#): > > The Anbar uprising is precedent for that. Well, ah, could you be a bit more specific? Because, honestly, I think it’s more evidence of what I’ve been trying to tell you than making your case for you…or whatever you think this example does for whatever the hell your point is. For anyone not up on NFBW’s reference, [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_in_Anbar_Province) is the Wiki on basically the history of the fighting in this province. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/128 "2014-06-15T01:29:55Z")
The carrier Obama has ordered to the Gulf? _USS George H. W. Bush_. That’s either completely fitting or not at all fitting. I can’t decide. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/129 "2014-06-15T01:32:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The carrier Obama has ordered to the Gulf? _USS George H. W. Bush_. > > That’s either completely fitting or not at all fitting. I can’t decide. Maybe some guys wearing ISIS costumes will jump out of the bushes and yell “booga!” and everyone will abandon ship. Then the ship will sink. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/130 "2014-06-15T02:30:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The carrier Obama has ordered to the Gulf? _USS George H. W. Bush_. > > That’s either completely fitting or not at all fitting. I can’t decide. I call it irony. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/131 "2014-06-15T05:49:52Z")
How will XT react to all this Shiite militia latest news? Iraq Insurgent Offensive Slows Outside Of Baghdad Reuters 06/14/14 06:47 PM ET > **[Iraq Remains On Edge As Insurgent Advance Slows](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/iraq-insurgent-baghdad_n_5495627)** > > Iraq Remains On Edge As Insurgent Advance Slows Some excerpts: > [@](#): > > Thousands of Iraqis responded to a call by the country’s most influential Shi’ite cleric to take up arms and defend the country against the insurgency, led by the Sunni militant Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL. > [@](#): > > But having encountered little resistance in majority Sunni areas, the militants have now come up against the army, which clawed back some towns and territory around Samarra on Saturday with the help of Shi’ite militia. > [@](#): > > Troops backed by the Shi’ite Asaib Ahl al-Haq militia helped retake the town of Muqdadiya northeast of Baghdad, and ISIL was dislodged from Dhuluiya after three hours of fighting with tribesmen, local police andkk residents, a tribal leader said. > [@](#): > > In Basra, Iraq’s main city in the mainly Shi’ite far south, hundreds volunteered to join the battle against ISIL, heeding a call to arms by Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who commands unswerving loyalty from most Iraqi Shi’ites. > > The volunteers, of all ages, were due to be given weapons and sent to a security center in Basra later on Saturday ready to be transferred farther north. “We the people of Basra obeyed our instructions to defend our country from south to north,” said 63-year-old Kadhem Jassim… ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/132 "2014-06-15T06:10:55Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, ah, could you be a bit more specific? Because, honestly, I think it’s more evidence of what I’ve been trying to tell you than making your case for you…or whatever you think this example does for whatever the hell your point is. For anyone not up on NFBW’s reference, [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_in_Anbar_Province) is the Wiki on basically the history of the fighting in this province. AQI is the forerunner of Jihadists stirred up interest in Iraq this past week; > [@](#): > > In August 2006, several tribes located near Ramadi and led by Sheikh Abdul Sattar Abu Risha revolted against AQI. The tribes formed the Anbar Awakening and helped turn the tide against the insurgents. American and Iraqi tribal forces regained control of Ramadi in early 2007, as well as other cities such as Hīt, Haditha, and Rutbah. > **[Anbar campaign (2003–2011)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_in_Anbar_Province)** > >  United States >  Iraq > Invasion (2003) >  Iraq “The tribes formed the Anbar Awakening and helped turn the tide against the insurgents.” The insurgents in that case were al Qaeda in Iraq. Like I said we have a orecedent for what may happen to the second coming of ACI. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/133 "2014-06-15T08:48:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > My point was that you weren’t making an argument, you were just spouting a bunch of dogma. :rolleyes: And you are just trying to justify an extremely stupid and evil war. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But yes, war does cause death. That’s clearly why no one should ever participate in a war, revolution, assassination or commit any harmful act, regardless of whether others are holding to that same rules or not. What are you trying to argue? What “rules”? We simply engaged in an act of outright imperialist aggression, a war of conquest with some _really_ transparent lies as a handwaved justification. Then we tortured and raped and randomly killed people all over the place while we are there. Not many “rules” there. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And hey, maybe you really are a complete pacifist but I’m not. If I have to snipe a guy who has two children at gun point, I’m going to snipe him. If you think that’s bad and evil, then we’re going to have to agree to disagree, as there’s no coming to terms with our relative positions. Is it? I’m not a pacifist at all, and your analogy is ridiculous. We were the ones threatening and killing people; we were the aggressors. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/134 "2014-06-15T09:49:15Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And hey, maybe you really are a complete pacifist but I’m not. If I have to snipe a guy who has two children at gun point, I’m going to snipe him. If you think that’s bad and evil, then we’re going to have to agree to disagree, as there’s no coming to terms with our relative positions. Is it? Yea. Maybe if I’d blown the lock off the door, left free guns lying about and showed him to the nursery I’d feel like that also. And I haven’t seen the USA military ‘snipe’ anything. They’ll as usual, do the equivalent of ‘sniping’ with a shotgun. Sorry kids, collateral damage and all that. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/135 "2014-06-22T22:10:17Z")
> **[In Historic Reversal, Turkey Opens Door To Splitting Iraq](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/turkey-kurdistan_n_5504309)** > > In Historic Reversal, Turkey Opens Door To Splitting Iraq Turkey is open to an independent Kurdistan. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/136 "2014-06-22T22:17:30Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > [Turkey Would Support Iraqi Kurds' Bid For Self-Rule, Spokesman Says In Historic Remark | HuffPost The World Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/17/turkey-kurdistan_n_5504309.html) > > Turkey is open to an independent Kurdistan. That’s some sloppy reporting. If you go to the original article, it says: > [@](#): > > In case Iraq gets partitioned, said Celik, “the Kurds, like any other nation, will have the right to decide their fate.” > > Celik believes that Iraq is already headed towards partition thanks to “Maliki’s sectarian policies.” _In case Iraq gets partitioned…_ ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/137 "2014-06-23T10:42:58Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > [Turkey Would Support Iraqi Kurds' Bid For Self-Rule, Spokesman Says In Historic Remark | HuffPost The World Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/17/turkey-kurdistan_n_5504309.html) > > Turkey is open to an independent Kurdistan. Its early to make the call - but Kurds have to weigh the benefits of a very weak federalism and staying part of Iraq vs total independence. The latter having perhaps greater consequences than the former. First order of business is gaining international support to destroy ISIS. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/138 "2014-06-23T11:12:28Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Its early to make the call - but Kurds have to weigh the benefits of a very weak federalism and staying part of Iraq vs total independence. The latter having perhaps greater consequences than the former. > > First order of business is gaining international support to destroy ISIS. Destroy, how? Given they are entrenched in numbers in Syria and fighting the Assad regime which is still nominally our enemy? With what troops? We have no effective allies in Syria. The extreme islamists of various ilks are the most effective and powerful of the resistance. The Kurds and or the militias? Kurds won’t be interested and while the militias might do a great job of reigniting a civil war I doubt they are up to invading Syria. Especially as ISIS were well-armed to being with and have just been resupplied by the Iraqi Army. The Iraqi Army? Enough said. Iran? Air-power won’t do it alone without moving into the whole ‘we had to destroy the city to save it’ territory in Iraq and Syria. I’m all for smashing ISIS. I’m just not seeing a credible option. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/139 "2014-06-25T03:07:49Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Destroy, how? Given they are entrenched in numbers in Syria and fighting the Assad regime which is still nominally our enemy? With what troops? The terrorists do not control the sky and never will. Here’s a start. Intelligence gathering. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States is flying F-18 attack aircraft launched from the carrier USS George H.W. Bush on missions over Iraq to conduct surveillance of insurgents who have seized part of the country, a U.S. official said on Thursday. > [@](#): > > General Martin Dempsey, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told lawmakers on Wednesday the United States has been carrying out manned and unmanned intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions over Iraq and was devoting a number of planes and Navy ships to the effort. [http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0EU1JT20140619?irpc=932](http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0EU1JT20140619?irpc=932) First step could be to establish a corridor for ISF to move north toward Mosul and to western border. Slowing ISIS freedom of movement is first step. After a few Hellfires light up those pickup trucks the non-suicidal terrorists begin to lose faith in their new masked prophet. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/140 "2014-06-25T03:24:45Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The Kurds and or the militias? Kurds won’t be interested and while the militias might do a great job of reigniting a civil war I doubt they are up to invading Syria. Hold on with the last right words. Something like 20,000 Shiite fighters have been in Iraq fighting the likes of ISIS, but have returned to defend Baghdad. If these are Badr militia they would coordinate With the UD. If they follow Sadr, probably not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553.md?page=8)