# What should the West do about the present situation in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553 "2014-06-11T18:20:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/161 "2014-06-26T05:10:58Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Their local allies in Iraq will most certainly turn on them at some point. When will the local Sunni ‘allies’ on Iraq be called to account for being accessories to murder and mayhem? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/162 "2014-06-26T06:19:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > When will the local Sunni ‘allies’ on Iraq be called to account for being accessories to murder and mayhem? Ummm, I don’t know? What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/163 "2014-06-26T12:47:30Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That ship has already sailed. I trust the President of the United States knows why and how much this barbaric band of thieves and murderers needs to be addressed. Your seeing ‘no reason’ will have little to do with decisions he will make on this matter. > Here’s a summary from ten days back that might help you to see what’s already going on: > > [American Power: Military Package for U.S. Counteroffensive Against #ISIS in Iraq](http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/military-package-for-us.html?m=1) American Power Blog who are “Keeping an eye on the communist-left so you don’t have to!” Strange bedfellows you got, NFBW. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/164 "2014-06-26T13:43:02Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That ship has already sailed. I trust the President of the United States knows why and how much this barbaric band of thieves and murderers needs to be addressed. Your seeing ‘no reason’ will have little to do with decisions he will make on this matter. > Here’s a summary from ten days back that might help you to see what’s already going on: > > [American Power: Military Package for U.S. Counteroffensive Against #ISIS in Iraq](http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/military-package-for-us.html?m=1) Once again I must ask: Do you read your own cites? Here’s what the first line says, emphasis added: > [@](#): > > “Commentary and analysis on American politics, culture, and national identity, U.S. foreign policy and international relations, and the state of education - **from a neoconservative perspective!** ” So, no, I don’ need those types of cites to see what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/165 "2014-06-26T13:55:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That’s a rather non-comprehensive response. You know that a large number of Syrian rebel groups dislike ISIL. They were given an ultimatum from the local al-qaida franchise to chill out or gtfo. Their local allies in Iraq will most certainly turn on them at some point. The Kurds will hold northern Iraq. Expand on how the Caliphate shall unfurl, if you please. In the long run it almost certainly will not, there just isn’t enough political support on the ground for such a thing. But at present, its advantage is that ISIS is for the moment fortunate in its enemies. The Iraqi and Syrian governments and forces are in no shape to fight it effectively, the other Syrian rebels are not better positioned, the Kurds have an ammo-and-supply problem, and the civilians chafing under ISIS rule are, well, civilians. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/166 "2014-06-26T14:28:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In the long run it almost certainly will not, there just isn’t enough political support on the ground for such a thing. But at present, its advantage is that ISIS is for the moment fortunate in its enemies. The Iraqi and Syrian governments and forces are in no shape to fight it effectively, the other Syrian rebels are not better positioned, the Kurds have an ammo-and-supply problem, and the civilians chafing under ISIS rule are, well, civilians. There’s a weird dynamic going on in Syria. To some extent, Assad benefits from ISIL. He can say he’s “fighting terrorists, not legit rebels”. He has actually been known to provide some air support\* for ISIL if the more moderate rebels start gaining the upper hand. And as long as they are fighting each other, they’re not fighting him. \*Syrian aircraft suddenly show up and bomb the moderates to keep the stalemate going ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/167 "2014-06-26T16:31:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In the long run it almost certainly will not, there just isn’t enough political support on the ground for such a thing. But at present, its advantage is that ISIS is for the moment fortunate in its enemies. The Iraqi and Syrian governments and forces are in no shape to fight it effectively, the other Syrian rebels are not better positioned, the Kurds have an ammo-and-supply problem, and the civilians chafing under ISIS rule are, well, civilians. For Pete’s sake, you said it would be smart for Turkey to engage the ISIL. Can you defend that position or not? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/168 "2014-06-26T18:07:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > For Pete’s sake, you said it would be smart for Turkey to engage the ISIL. Can you defend that position or not? Easy: The only power in the region that **could** crush ISIS in short order is Turkey; doing so would save them headaches down the road regardless of ISIS’ long-term prospects without Turkish intervention. The longer ISIS lasts, the more refugees Turkey gets, the longer the whole regional economy remains destabilized, etc. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/169 "2014-06-26T19:19:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Easy: The only power in the region that **could** crush ISIS in short order is Turkey; doing so would save them headaches down the road regardless of ISIS’ long-term prospects without Turkish intervention. The longer ISIS lasts, the more refugees Turkey gets, the longer the whole regional economy remains destabilized, etc. Not that I’m a big fan of Iran, but why wouldn’t they be considered a regional power that could crush ISIS? And why do you think Turkey could do it ‘in short order’?? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/170 "2014-06-26T19:24:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Not that I’m a big fan of Iran, but why wouldn’t they be considered a regional power that could crush ISIS? And why do you think Turkey could do it ‘in short order’?? Because they’re a lot closer to the ISIS-controlled territories and their intervention (in Syria as well as Iraq) will not complicate things or upset Western powers nearly as much as if Iran did it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/171 "2014-06-26T23:46:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because they’re a lot closer to the ISIS-controlled territories and their intervention (in Syria as well as Iraq) will not complicate things or upset Western powers nearly as much as if Iran did it. Yeah, Turkish planes bombing targets in Iraq and Syria wouldn’t complicate things at all. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/172 "2014-06-27T02:07:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Ummm, I don’t know? What’s your point? Its not difficult. The Sunnis are allied with ‘terrorists’ who have shot unarmed captured soldiers in the head - machine gun prisoners in mass graves: [http://search.yahoo.com/mobile/s?rewrite=72&.tsrc=apple&first=1&p=isis+execution+photos&pintl=en&pcarrier=AT%26T&pmcc=310&pmnc=410&fr=onesearch](http://search.yahoo.com/mobile/s?rewrite=72&.tsrc=apple&first=1&p=isis+execution+photos&pintl=en&pcarrier=AT%26T&pmcc=310&pmnc=410&fr=onesearch) The Sunnis allied with these terrorist barbarians are not treated as barbarians themselves. Despite the fact that Bush was not justified in any way to invade Iraq the reality is there is an elected government in sovereign Iraq that is justified in defending itself from a foreign based terrorist organization and threat. Why do Iraq’s Sunnis get a pass for aligning their political dissatisfaction with terrorists murderers and thieves? . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/173 "2014-06-27T02:41:36Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yeah, Turkish planes bombing targets in Iraq and Syria wouldn’t complicate things at all. Not nearly as much as if they were Iranian (or Russian, or Saudi, or Israeli, or American) planes, at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/174 "2014-06-27T03:17:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, no, I don’ need those types of cites to see what’s going on. The point presented was an opinion in the Wall Sreet Journal: **A Plan to Save Iraq From ISIS and Iran**. Baghdad can be protected with American help and a counteroffensive launched to retake captured territory. By Jack Keane And Danielle Pletka. Updated June 16, 2014 7:44 p.m. ET > [@](#): > > The Middle East is in a downward spiral. More than 160,000 have died in Syria’s civil war, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, aka ISIS, has captured key Iraqi cities and is marching on Baghdad, and the security investments made by the U.S. over the past decade—like them or not—are being frittered away. > > It is still possible to reverse the recent gains of ISIS, an outgrowth of what was once al Qaeda in Iraq. The group’s fighters number only in the thousands, and while well-armed, they lack the accoutrements of a serious military. But only the United States can provide the necessary military assistance for Baghdad to beat back our shared enemy. Key phrase “like them or not” … I opposed the invasion that forced the security committment, so Im on the ‘not like’ side, but reality is what still needs to be dealt with. (“…the security investments made by the U.S. over the past decade— **like them or not** —are being frittered away”) I cited those points because they best summarized what appears to be the military strategy and tactics and immediate fixes that the White House has already put in place. That harsh reality is that thoughts and opinion from the pro-invasion Republican neocon right wing think tanks from 2003 and the current US national security team at the White House have arrived at near identical policy ideas in dealing with the ISIS threat to Iraq. And that does not make Obama a bedfellow with the neocons. Does it? If a determination that a certain military and intelligence response to the ISIS threat is the best course of action it surely can’t be rejected because neocons at the AEI happen to agree. Should it? And think how far the neocons have come since 2003 in they are not calling for sending ground troops in for a preemptive war and probably won’t do so again for a long time. Invading Iraq in 2003 was not justified and anyone that said it was is dead wrong. But doing something to counter the ISIS threat today has absolutely no connection to that unjustifiable decision that Bush made back in 2003 caused all this in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/175 "2014-06-27T03:41:22Z")
Putin to the rescue again: > [@](#): > > In an interview with the BBC’s Arabic service, Mr Maliki said Iraq had bought second-hand jets from Russia and said they would be in action against insurgents within a week. > > “God willing within one week this force will be effective and will destroy the terrorists’ dens,” he said. > **[Iraq launches airborne assault on Tikrit](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-27/iraq-army-launches-airborne-assault-on-tikrit/5553968)** > > Iraqi troops have launched a helicopter-borne assault on a sports stadium in Saddam Hussein's home town of Tikrit, in an attempt to gain a toehold in the rebel-held northern city. US Special Ops helping to spot terrorist den targets for Iraqi fighter pilots flying in second hand Russian MIGs. You gotta admire the international flavor of the counterterrorist offensive getting underway right now in Iraq to smash the ISIS barbarians. I wonder if Maliki will cancel this contract or if he’s already paid too much in advance for 36 F16s. \*\* Sticker Shock: Iraqi F-16s $165 Million Each. By Mark Thompson\*\*. Sept. 28, 2011 > **[Sticker Shock: Iraqi F-16s $165 Million Each | TIME.com](https://nation.time.com/2011/09/28/sticker-shock-iraqi-f-16s-165-million-each/)** > > Think of it as a military-industrial complex two-fer -- first we invade Iraq, eight years later we're selling it F-16s. "Iraq has now made its first transfer payment for the purchase of 18 F-16 fighter aircraft," State Department spokeswoman Victoria... ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/176 "2014-06-27T03:59:28Z")
Not surprising the US military industrial complex would hold out for more money while people die. But can fighter pilots transition to Russian jets that quickly? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/177 "2014-06-27T04:33:37Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Not surprising the US military industrial complex would hold out for more money while people die. But can fighter pilots transition to Russian jets that quickly? Perhaps they come with a free in country 90 day demonstration on how to light up terrorist white Toyota’s pickips with rocket launchers in the truck bed or a stolen US made Humvee heading across the border into Syria. If expect any fighter pilot could catch on fairly quickly to an unsophisticated flying machine of any brand. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/178 "2014-06-30T19:38:23Z")
Just IMHO, but jets never get the job done. They can inflict pain but - other than nukes and such - can’t wipe out ground forces. If you actually think they’ll ‘wipe out terrorist dens’ you can dissuade yourself of that straightaway. Jets, like artillery, support the groundpounders. They can’t replace them. Until infantry goes in, ISIS will never be truly dealt with, and possibly not even then. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/179 "2014-06-30T19:50:31Z")
I see with reports of mass graves that the blood bath part is fully under way, with ISIL executing prisoners and the government and/or Shia militia returning the favor by executing Sunnis. It’s ugly already, and only going to get uglier. [QUOTE=Jonathan Chance] Just IMHO, but jets never get the job done. They can inflict pain but - other than nukes and such - can’t wipe out ground forces. If you actually think they’ll ‘wipe out terrorist dens’ you can dissuade yourself of that straightaway. Jets, like artillery, support the groundpounders. They can’t replace them. Until infantry goes in, ISIS will never be truly dealt with, and possibly not even then. [/QUOTE] Leaving aside the fact that no matter how precise it is, air strikes by their very nature are going to wreak collateral damage, especially in the close fighting going on, you are right…by itself air power isn’t going to be decisive unless you also have ground pounders willing to go in and take and hold the ground or stand and fight while the air strikes come in support. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553/180 "2014-06-30T21:57:25Z")
Perhaps the question should be: [What should Spain do about ISIL?](http://abcnews.go.com/International/terrifying-isis-map-showing-year-expansion-plan/story?id=24366850) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-the-west-do-about-the-present-situation-in-iraq/690553.md?page=10)