What should we do/how should we feel about the stupid?

[CarnalK]

@Velocity

We shouldn’t scorn them, but we shouldn’t bail them out, either.

Or handicapped people. And most especially we shouldn’t bail out people who become handicapped because they were stupid. MURICA!

[Leaper]

@GIGObuster

You would think that is the case, but no.

As Jon Stewart shows with clips from a science, space and technology hearing it is the Republicans specially the ones with the problem. The scientist that had to deal with the majority of the reps had the Sisyphean task of pushing several “million pounds of idiot up a mountain”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI

I have seen virtually all republicans doing that in the past, and that is sadly just last month, by now if they had any intelligence they would already had realized that what they are doing is really gambling with the future of the world and the USA.

I suppose it depends how much you think they believe what they say, and whether selfishness and not caring about the effect it has on the future is “stupidity” or not.

[GIGObuster]

@Leaper

I suppose it depends how much you think they believe what they say, and whether selfishness and not caring about the effect it has on the future is “stupidity” or not.

Well, as the saying goes ‘Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity’.

[Leaper]

@GIGObuster

Well, as the saying goes ‘Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity’.

Still not necessarily malice, per se, though. “I’ve got mine, and I’m going to protect it any way I can, and I’m old so who really cares about some far flung future anyway?” is depressingly common.

[GIGObuster]

@Leaper

Still not necessarily malice, per se, though. “I’ve got mine, and I’m going to protect it any way I can, and I’m old so who really cares about some far flung future anyway?” is depressingly common.

True too, and items like that convince me that that other saying (falsely attributed to Churchill) that goes like: “If you’re not a liberal when you are young, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative when you are older, you have no brain.” to be just a bunch of hooey.

I think that “who really cares as I’m so old” falls also in the foolish column as it seems that then they are not caring about their grandsons or family descendants, unless… they are really in the Psychopath sphere.

[septimus]

@Bricker

The issue is not lack of mathematical insight. It’s a conviction that no matter how poor you are, in America you’re entitled to nice things like sofas and iPads.

This is mostly false. To the extent that it has a little truth, all you’ve done is describe a specific type of stupidity.

But some people have a need to recast stupidity into terms of morality.

[Odesio]

I don’t believe most states allow you to purchase lottery tickets with credit cards. So someone buying $10,000 worth of tickets is either using cash, a debit card, or maybe a gift card but isn’t adding directly to their debt.

While being lazy or willfully ignorant are moral failings I don’t believe stupidity is. How do I feel about the stupid? They’re people and deserve to be treated with kindness, respect, and understanding just like everybody else.

[Leaper]

@GIGObuster

I think that “who really cares as I’m so old” falls also in the foolish column as it seems that then they are not caring about their grandsons or family descendants, unless… they are really in the Psychopath sphere.

They’re also generally rich and religious, remember?

[JohnT]

I noticed a number of people talking about lottery tickets and how you can’t force people to not buy them, or some such.

Actually, there was a period when the state didn’t run lotteries… perhaps we ought to think about re-banning them?

[CarnalK]

@Odesio

I don’t believe most states allow you to purchase lottery tickets with credit cards. So someone buying $10,000 worth of tickets is either using cash, a debit card, or maybe a gift card but isn’t adding directly to their debt.

Buy your groceries at Walmart on your credit card. Use your cash to buy the lottery tickets. Ez pz.

[septimus]

@JohnT

I noticed a number of people talking about lottery tickets and how you can’t force people to not buy them, or some such.

Actually, there was a period when the state didn’t run lotteries… perhaps we ought to think about re-banning them?

State lotteries are often described as a “tax on stupidity.” Their introduction is an example of precisely what some of us are complaining about.

[Rosapants]

@Leaper

There’s a Pit thread partly about rent to own companies, and a particular customer who got in deep because of their interest rates. Many posters there derided the customer and/or defended the store, asking whose fault it was that the customer was stupid enough not to think to multiply two numbers and see how much money she was spending. That led to a comment I thought was really interesting:

We, at least in America, seem to tend to think of stupidity as self-inflicted ("If you’d just paid attention in school, you wouldn’t be so dumb), yet the law of averages seem to state that there MUST be a lot of people for whom this is not the case.

So… What SHOULD we do and think about the stupid?

I think if she went crazy and blamed the store for her mistake that would make her somewhat socially inept/stupid, but that doesn’t mean she’s necessarily stupid as a whole. I think some people are just careless. There are people who seem very stupid, but they can create elaborate music by ear. I don’t think that people who paid attention in school are necessarily more intelligent. Some people didn’t find school that interesting, but still read things outside of school and became smarter that way. People say that social intelligence is the most important form of intelligence in this society. I’ve met so many people who have no concept of how to have a conversation or how to gauge other people’s emotions/desires. That, in my opinion, is probably the worst form of stupidity. Being socially intelligent is extremely important if you want to coexist peacefully with this crazy society. I’d rather be around a person who has an IQ of 50 who doesn’t say much than someone with a high IQ who is boring, self-centered, and completely unaware of other people’s emotions. How should you think about the stupid? I guess it depends on what type. If they have a really low IQ, I feel a little bit sorry for them, but if their IQ is normal/high, but they have no social intelligence, I tend to stay far away. Hopefully someone else will have the guts to tell them one day because I myself am too busy working on my own stupidity lol

[Velocity]

@septimus

State lotteries are often described as a “tax on stupidity.” Their introduction is an example of precisely what some of us are complaining about.

I see it more as a “tax on hope.” I’m sure most people who play the lottery technically *know *that their odds of winning are 1-in-many-millions. But they still fancy themselves being that special person anyway.
It’s a battle of head vs. heart.

[Mops]

@Trinopus

This already happens in family bankruptcies. People (some people, some times) go wild with credit cards, knowing that bankruptcy is coming and there’s no way out. Instead of slowing down as they approach the cliffs of doom…they speed up. Why not? Have a few good dinners, see a few movies, max out the cards…then go to bankruptcy filing.

It’s one of those things that’s hard to prove, and hard to regulate against without doing harm to more reasonable people who fall into bankruptcy without taking advantage of it in that way.

Is that kind of behavour (incurring debt while already intending to default on it) not going to get you convicted for fraud in the US?

[JohnT]

@septimus

State lotteries are often described as a “tax on stupidity.” Their introduction is an example of precisely what some of us are complaining about.

Yes, but many “smart” people bought into the argument that the proceeds would benefit education by bringing in extra funds, ignoring evidence that all that would happen is that the States would use lottery education funds to reduce education dollars from the general ledgers on a 1:1 basis. I.e, if your state spent $1 billion on education pre-lottery, then post lottery they will still spend just $1 billion… the only difference is the source of the money.

Educated, informed people knew this… and they still voted for the lottery.

My point being, that merely being intelligent isn’t enough. It has to be backed with a moral compass that says “I won’t take advantage of people less fortunate and I won’t allow others to take advantage of those less fortunate.” Too many “intelligent” people, when faced with the lottery decision, took the tact of “Eh, if you’re stupid enough to go broke buying these things… well, fuck you, then.”

[Thudlow_Boink]

The average adult in modern society has more freedom and more choices than most people have had throughout human history. And this is, on the whole, a very good thing. But I think some people would be better suited for a more structured, more controlled life in which someone else handles many of the choices, similar to the way in which parents run the lives of their children.

This could be a “career” that’s more than just a nine-to-five job—like joining the military, joining a convent or monastery, being a live-in domestic servant, being an old-fashioned farm or ranch hand who lives on the premises. Or it could involve being a member of a family where someone else—a husband, a wife, a parent—makes all the decisions and handles all the practical details for you. My impression is that the opportunity/necessity for living such a life used to be a lot more common than it is nowadays.

[Jackmannii]

@septimus

State lotteries are often described as a “tax on stupidity.”

As is legalized casino gambling.

[btthegreat]

@even_sven

I think there are a couple factors in play here.

One is that the world has shifted to where intelligence is privileged above most other things. Not long ago, strength and endurance were enough to make a living off of. But a lot of the unskilled and semi-skilled jobs have gone away, and there just aren’t many chances for those of us who are not as sharp to make a living.

Good point. And this is a problem neither unions nor govt, nor business get. If I read one more union rep or politician promising to ‘retrain’ workers for ‘jobs of the 21st century’ I am going to go postal. Too many of our finest workers will not retain what someone expects him to, will never be techno-savvy, and will not succeed at some new profession chosen to replace what he has learned gradually, slowly over 34 years at his saw mill job,or as a garment sorter, or printing worker, meter reader, or travel agent. Folks of moderate mental capacity, by their nature handle changes in routine and environment slowly and absorb new skill sets and information in a dubious, marginal way. They had offered their loyalty, their dependability and their tenacity for decades to employers who no longer can afford to reward those attributes over flexibility and intelligence in an ever more complicated work environment. they are losing their job niche, not their job.

Another is that families have changed, and people with disabilities no longer have an extended family that can balance some of their challenges. There is an interesting study that schizophrenics had the best outcomes in rural Tanzania, despite the lack for formal health care. In the context of living with a close knit family there are fewer opportunities to get into life-changing trouble, and there are more people to balance your weaknesses, whatever they are. Of course there are trade-offs, but for the disabled (and the elderly and really anyone who needs extra care), the loss of the extended family structure is devestating.

yep too true, and many of the community support systems such as your local churches, your kiwanis or free-masons or some of the womens clubs, that focused some efforts at community level charity or outreach are withering away for lack of youth recruitment and interest in the post internet world. Membership is older and and no one has the time to give, or the inclination to revitalize clubs that depend on weekly or monthly meet-and greet social setting. This is another niche that is dying

I grew up in a very poor community, and many were recent immigrants or poor mothers temporarily in a bad spot, some were “lifers.” Most of them had very serious issues-- major health problems, metnal illness, uncontrolled drug addiction. What can you do? As much as you want them just to do better, they don’t have the internal resources to do so. You can beg, threaten, plead or cut off aid, but the mentally ill drug addict just isn’t going to be able to hold a nine to five. I really think at that point you need to focus on making sure they can live in safety and dignity, and making sure their kids’ opportunities are stunted. Any society has people left behind. It’s to our credit that we make sure they have their basic needs taken care of and have whatever opportunities they can benefit from.

I agree here as well, but this is far too complicated a topic for here. It involves changes in almost all our institutions, our cultural and personal stereotypes and our views of law, medicine and social constructs

[Sherrerd]

@Velocity

I see it more as a “tax on hope.” I’m sure most people who play the lottery technically *know *that their odds of winning are 1-in-many-millions. But they still fancy themselves being that special person anyway.

I wonder if there is any reputable research comparing incidence of government-sponsored lotteries with national socio-economic mobility scores.

In nations with low chances for a baby born into poverty to ever escape poverty, are lotteries offered as a sort of “bread and circuses” style of hope for the permanent underclass?

And in re the thread topic: I wonder if there is reputable research correlating IQs of the ruling class with degree of socio-economic mobility? One might expect to see more stupidity in ruling-class types who believe that they themselves are best off in a static hierarchical social order–in neo-feudal societies in which medical and scientific progress grinds to a halt.

(But it’s so much fun to drink from golden goblets filled with $75 icecubes, and have the peasants doff their caps!)

[Voyager]

@septimus

State lotteries are often described as a “tax on stupidity.” Their introduction is an example of precisely what some of us are complaining about.

If you buy tickets you can’t afford, true. But the very first lottery tickets I ever bought was with, among others, one of the world’s leading experts on combinatorics. So, sometimes it is for amusement.

We won.