# what should we do when they come for our guns? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2001, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645 "2001-08-23T02:20:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/41 "2001-08-23T19:51:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FallenAngel \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > > would be to first take away the right to vote. Otherwise > > we just have congress repeal the gun ban. > > > > do you honestly think this will happen? > > I could go into a long rant about how the Second Amendment exists to enumerate our right to take arms against tyrannical government. No. the Second ammendment exists to gurantee that the _Federal_ government can’t deny the _States_ the right to keep standing militias. In the years since the civil war, we’ve had a strong Fed for so long we’ve forgotten that State vs. Federal soverienty was more nearly equal back then. The founders believed that the gurantee against tyrannical goverment was _State_ soverienty. And that this balance was _uppermost_ on the minds of the writers of the constitution. You, as an individual, have **absolutely no right** to be armed if your **state** government doesn’t want you to be. But you control the opinions of your state and federal government via your right to vote. > [@](#): > > Back to the OP: Yes, the legislators and sociofascists like Sarah, Hillary, Chuck, et al. learned from the Fabians that incremental erosion is the safe way to go. These people have strong popular support in their own states or **they wouldn’t be in government**. We (or rather their constituents) can vote their asses out of office whenever they feel like it. As long as the people have the power of the vote, the power of the gun is unnecessary. Think about it, without the vote, the 2nd ammendment can’t gurantee anything. But _with_ the vote, we don’t need it at all. Even if the 2nd ammendment didn’t exist, we could still elect only those who would gurantee our right to be armed. > [@](#): > > and that politicians fear nothing more than an armed populace. No, they fear nothing more than an **informed** populace. You on the other hand will let a politician do anything he wants to you if only he will kowtow to your gun fetish. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![peewee\_RotA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@peewee\_RotA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peewee_RotA)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/42 "2001-08-23T19:58:06Z")
I don’t really get into this one… seeing you have a gun… (not smart to ague with the barell of a gun) but here are funny things… while we were voting (gore and bush) the republicans and democrats were “the most diveded they have ever been” and the chance of a war between the 2 is liekly but not very… Democrats suport gun controll… therefore they don’t have guns… republicans are agaisnt it… therefore we do have guns… who wins the war? lol also here’s your answer… when they come to take the gun shoo them with it. ---
**Author:** ![peewee\_RotA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@peewee\_RotA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peewee_RotA)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/43 "2001-08-23T20:00:18Z")
I don’t like to flood like this but… I got an e-mail (with sources) saying that in WWII 1 reason why Japan didn’t invade america is because most americans at the time owned guns ---
**Author:** ![Tedster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@Tedster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tedster)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/44 "2001-08-23T20:00:36Z")
So, in every instance where “the people” has been construed to mean an individual right, they somehow didn’t mean that in the 2nd Amendment? You’re going to have to try a little harder than that. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/45 "2001-08-23T20:07:12Z")
**Tejota** , the Supreme Court disagrees with you on the states vs. individuals issue. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/46 "2001-08-23T20:27:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\ ***Tejota** , the Supreme Court disagrees with you on the states vs. individuals issue. \*\* Bzzzt! Wrong answer! thank you for playing! The Supreme court hasn’t addressed this directly at all, only indirectly. The case is _US v. Miller_. While their ruling doesn’t say so explicitly, the ruling itself makes sense only if they _don’t_ believe this is a personal right. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/47 "2001-08-23T20:43:06Z")
I’m sure someone will refresh my recollection: doesn’t the District of Columbia have a ban on gun possession? Has the NRA (or anyone else) ever tried to challenge that in court? I know they like using DC as a (misguided, IMO) example of the futility of banning guns. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/48 "2001-08-23T21:00:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > \*\*In the process of stopping him (and his wife) the police chief of a small town was shot 19 times by a AK47. That is why I don’t understand why anyone needs such a weapon. \*\* Actually, I suspect – and I’m not trying to be glib here, this is a valid point – he was shot 19 times by a person wielding an AK47. In any case, “need” is a poor argument for any Constitutional right. I don’t see why anyone meeds to be a Scientologist, but I wouldn’t therefore ask that it not be covered under their First Amendment rights. Similarly, I don’t see why anyone who isn’t hiding anything needs to be free from having their home searched, but I wouldn’t attempt to limit their Fourth Amendment rights. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/49 "2001-08-23T21:12:08Z")
Tejota, you are misinformed. The Supreme Court has called the 2nd amendment an individual right. [U.S. v. Cruikshank](http://www.2ndlawlib.org/court/fed/sc/92us542.html) Two more points. 1. The origin of the phrase “a well regulated militia” comes from a 1698 treatise _A Discourse of Government with Relation to Militias_ by Andrew Fletcher, in which the term “well regulated” was equated with “well-behaved” or “disciplined”. 2. James Madison, considered to be the author of the Bill of Rights, wrote that the Bill of Rights was “calculated to secure the personal rights of the people”. He never excluded the Second Amendment from this statement. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/50 "2001-08-23T21:16:51Z")
And while we’re trying to deconstruct the 2nd amendment, let me point out that the ‘well regulated militia’ part is a PREAMBLE, and does not modify the second half of the sentence. For example, if the first amendment has been written, “Because a press corps that is free to shed light on the abuses of government power is critical to a free society, the right of the people to self expression shall not be infringed”, would you take that to mean that only a formal press corps has a right to free expression? Not hardly. ---
**Author:** ![AMM9132](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@AMM9132](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AMM9132)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/51 "2001-08-23T21:17:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pkbites \* > > I was in law enforcement at one time. Every cop I knew/know was very pro-gun. They also were married, had families, bills, a mortgage, etc. They didn’t want to loose their jobs over their political beliefs on any one issue. I know of lots of cops who are pro-life, yet still arrest protesters at an abortion clinic. Many cops feel the drinking age should be lower, speed limits higher, marijuana legal, etc., yet still enforce those laws.99% of cops will do as their told, the other 1% will get fired! > Counting on pro-gun police not to enforce a ban is foolish. \*\* ``` My Uncle has been a police officer in Tampa, FL for over 15 years, and I know first hand as well how true this is. Whether they agree with the laws or not, it is a police officer's duty to enforce what is right. When they take the oath to become an officer, they understand what is asked of them and anygood cop will put his duty before his personal beliefs. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/52 "2001-08-23T21:17:59Z")
The day **They** come for our guns is probably the day we use them. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/53 "2001-08-23T22:18:54Z")
First there is more than a twinge of paranoia it this thread, especially when we start talking about something that might just possibly happen in 300 years. Second, there are few scholars of the US Constitution who do not agree that the purpose of the Second Amendment was to prohibit the United States from interfering with the state militia. Read the Amendment as saying,“the United States shall not infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms.” There is nothing in the Great Document or in the Federalist Papers that suggests that the individual States cannot infringe that right. You cannot reasonably conclude that the “militia” language in the Amendment is just there to square off the paragraph. To this date no regularly established court has held the Second Amendment to embody a right necessary to ordered liberty and is therefore imposed on the States by the Fourteenth Amendment. Third, by what mechanism do you expect a national state or local government to gain the power to go out and run a general confiscation of firearms; an election or referendum, the action of elected representatives, an administrative edict or the spontaneous and unexplained appearance of some sort of despotic power determined to eliminate private firearms ownership? I am afraid the whole controversy smells of a contrived crises designed to stimulate the flow of money from the credulous to gun manufacturers, lobbing organizations and politicians. If I don’t go into town carrying a loaded pistol on my hip, or go hunting in a restricted area I don’t expect any confiscation of much of anything. As for myself, I would just as soon see automatic weapons (as distinguished from semiautomatic) and crew served weapons in the hands of unsupervised civilians kept to a minimum. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/54 "2001-08-24T00:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\ ***pkbites:** \*If you’re talking to me, you should have noticed that my OP specifically stated that there were no black helicopters or dictator. \* > > Well, that makes a [nice change](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=71506), at least. :rolleyes: \*\* Oh, so because I used one scenario in a **COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THREAD** I have to carry it over to another? This thread contains an entirely different “what if” scenario from the thread you mention. Why don’t you just tie in every thread I’ve ever done with this one too. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/55 "2001-08-24T00:39:00Z")
**erl:** \*I will not hesitate to go to jail for what I think is right. \* And you’re also okay with being nailed with a stiff mandatory sentence for using a firearm in the commission of a crime, I presume? Odd thread. The pro-gun advocates on this board are usually the ones who like to draw sharp distinctions between the gun-toting criminal scum (who should be punished most severely with heavy mandatory minimum sentences, never allowed to own a gun again, etc. etc. etc.) and law-abiding gun owners (who should be allowed to do pretty much anything they like with firearms). But here we see a majority of the gun advocates expressing their willingness, nay eagerness, to move from the second category into the first, as long as it happens to be for a cause they believe in. I don’t find this very reassuring. You know, folks, one of the strongest motivations many people have for supporting draconian gun-control measures is because they honestly think that people like you are essentially irresponsible “gun nuts,” whose talk about freedom and self-determination is just a thin disguise for your paranoid fantasies about having an opportunity to shoot a lot of people who are “out to get you.” **Please** don’t provide this distorted viewpoint with any more, er, ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/56 "2001-08-24T00:41:11Z")
**pkbites:** \*Oh, so because I used one scenario in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THREAD I have to carry it over to another? \* Who said you did? On the contrary, I was simply expressing my relief that you had abandoned your earlier “dictatorship” scenario. I think the one you outlined in this current thread is pretty implausible too, but at least it’s an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/57 "2001-08-24T00:50:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\ ***pkbites:** \*\*. I think the one you outlined in this current thread is pretty implausible too, but at least it’s an improvement. \*\* Implausible? But it it’s already starting to happen in California, and it’s only the begining out there. How can you exclaim something is implausible when it’s in the middle of happening. Folks are being ordered to turn in many models of guns. That’s confiscation. It’s happening. It’s also happened in Canada, Americas dimwitted sister. Or do you call that implausible too? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/58 "2001-08-24T00:57:19Z")
For the record, I think that the whole “300 years” estimation is a tad too optimistic. As Sam’s example shows, a nation-wide, heavy-handed series of restrictions can be put into place in as little as a decade. In the U.S., a similar set of restrictions can probably be put into place in about that same time, IF the pro-control crowd works hard enough at it, and/or if the pro-gun crowd doesn’t keep working at their end. Additionally, the odds of armed police/troops/leprechauns kicking in your door and demanding to get your guns is odd. But that’s not what worries me. What worries me is the small, piece-by-piece legislation that gradually wears down gun ownership. Here in California, for example, there was legislation that was to ban “pocket rockets”, i.e.- small guns. Before that, it was “Saturday Night Specials”. Both these types of guns were heavily hyped as evil, dangerous, and “the preferred weapon of criminals”. As more and more legislation passes, I’ll keep my eye out for loopholes that will allow me to practice my constitutional rights while also complying with the “law”. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/59 "2001-08-24T01:09:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\*The pro-gun advocates on this board are usually the ones who like to draw sharp distinctions between the gun-toting criminal scum (who should be punished most severely with heavy mandatory minimum sentences, never allowed to own a gun again, etc. etc. etc.) and law-abiding gun owners (who should be allowed to do pretty much anything they like with firearms). But here we see a majority of the gun advocates expressing their willingness, nay eagerness, to move from the second category into the first, as long as it happens to be for a cause they believe in. > \*\* > We draw a sharp distinction between what is illegal and what is morally wrong. > > \*\*You know, folks, one of the strongest motivations many people have for supporting draconian gun-control measures is because they honestly think that people like you are essentially irresponsible “gun nuts,” whose talk about freedom and self-determination is just a thin disguise for your paranoid fantasies about having an opportunity to shoot a lot of people who are “out to get you.” **Please** don’t provide this distorted viewpoint with any more, er, ammunition. \*\* If I really wanted to shoot someone, how would laws regarding the purchase of more guns stop me? I already have plenty of guns. How would laws regarding what type of solder I used to fasten a muzzle brake, or what country my trigger group parts came from, keep me from killing? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645/60 "2001-08-24T01:14:50Z")
Let me explain the “300 years” thing. I was trying to say that my core belief is that there will be gun confescation in this country some day, regardless of when it takes place, it WILL happen, even if it takes 300 years. 300 years wasn’t an estimate or anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-when-they-come-for-our-guns/77645.md?page=4)