# What should we do with confederate monuments and statues? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694 "2017-08-15T01:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/261 "2017-08-17T14:31:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you’re going to make silly arguments, why don’t you just say, “Next all churches are going to be burned down!!11!” I am certain there is one person out there somewhere that can be quoted saying that for a news story. Certainly there are enough prominent evangelicals who say that because a baker might have to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple, next thing will be the outlawing of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/262 "2017-08-17T14:33:26Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Well, that would be OK. If there’s a big statue honoring the abomination known as “sweet tea”, that sucker has to go. :mad: Now _them’s_ fightin’ words, bucko! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/263 "2017-08-17T14:33:32Z")
If we leave both of the rider’s legs in place, then we’ll be giving them twice as much honor as we give to Benedict Arnold. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/264 "2017-08-17T14:46:58Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > [A 1957 United Daughters of the Confederacy brass plaque about Jefferson Davis was taken down yesterday from the Hudson’s Bay Company’s exterior wall in Montreal.](https://twitter.com/sarahleavittcbc/status/897939800501637121)[The reporter covering its removal has received threats.](https://twitter.com/sarahleavittcbc/status/897857605049208833) [Montreal does have a history](http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-has-a-strong-historical-link-to-americas-confederate-past) of strong Confederate support, and there’s a good argument for keeping the people there today aware of it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/265 "2017-08-17T14:51:24Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > What do you mean by collectively? Who’s the collective ‘we’ here? New Orleans and other city governments, elected by the people they serve, voted to remove the statues. It might not have been a consensus, but it was a democratic process. As monstro pointed out to you, those statues were put up by a **violent** white majority at a time when it wasn’t safe for black people to even voice an objection to the statues. Well now a few generations later, the descendants of blacks who were terrorized in these cities and towns throughout the South have democratic control of these governments, or at least strong influence, and have decided they don’t want them there. White Southerners talk about honoring their forefathers, well guess what? It goes both ways. Black people and whites who abhor the ideas the South fought for are honoring their forefathers by taking those goddamned statues down for good. I thought that was pretty clear. Collectively would be the government elected by the people. So, I’m not sure why you thought I’d have a problem with cities, counties or state or even federal government removing statues. That’s exactly what I’m advocating for. As I pointed out to monstro, I don’t really care how they were put up…I care how we handle removing them at this stage. I think they should be removed by and at the will of the people using the democratic process to determine that this is what the majority want (I think it is, as can be seen by the number of state and local governments doing it), not at the whim of some angry people deciding to take it on themselves. I’m unsure why my position on this is that controversial or being argued against so forcefully. This is pretty much my default stance on everything…we have a government and a democracy for just this sort of thing. If the democratic process is broken as one poster asserted up thread, then THAT is a more serious issue that should be addressed first. Those statues have been there for a while now…they will keep until we get our collective shit together to decide what we, as a society, want to do about them. They don’t have to come down today…tomorrow would be good too. Or next week, or even next year. > [@](#): > > That’s right, and how did that progress happen – by people sitting down and shutting up and respecting white Confederate sympathizers, or by challenging them directly and telling them that they’re not going to tolerate a race-based class society? Progress doesn’t just happen. People in power, who get used to living in a society according to their own norms, don’t just change. Through the democratic process, that’s how. By changing the attitudes and view point of the majority and showing how morally bankrupt those earlier stances really were. By guys like me seeing on TV black students being attacked by dogs and water jets while trying to go to school and saying, that ain’t right. Again, I’m not saying do nothing. I’m saying work within the system. Going out with a mob to topple some statues by fiat isn’t going to change anything…it’s just going to make people mad and more entrenched and ramp up the violence on both sides. Electing officials who will simply send some government workers out to take them down still get them taken down without all of the potentials for conflict and confrontation. > [@](#): > > Not necessarily true. If you had been a black person in the late 1860s and early 1870s you might have been forgiven for assuming that things would be better in the 1880s and 1890s. By 1895, most states in the South had laws that severely restricted their rights even though they were in theory supposed to be treated as equals under the law. If you were black and lived during the era of Teddy Roosevelt you might have been encouraged by his attempts to bring more black people into the federal civil service. By the time Woodrow Wilson’s presidency ended in the early 1920s, most blacks had been expelled from those positions and the KKK enjoyed its largest ever membership. Yes, progress does eventually happen, but it doesn’t happen on its own and the lesson of history is, when you see the evil face of bigotry, confront it and tell its advocates that they’re not welcome in your neighborhood. And in less than 100 years of 1895, all those laws had been overturned. Didn’t do much for those black people living in 1860 or even 1920, but their descendants have it better than they did. While this is still a huge issue that needs to be addressed, it is better. In my lifetime it’s changed a lot, and I expect those changes to continue. I never said progress happened on its own. I have no problem with people protesting or advocating for change. I have a problem when people take it upon themselves by fiat to do something that should be done collectively, through our system, as I think that their actions are counterproductive in the long term. What gets stuff done is changing attitudes of people, getting them to see the issues, and getting them to vote in people who will actually try to change. I see that as happening in this case…cities, counties, state governments and the like are taking steps to bring those monuments down in a lot of cases. That is progress. What I think is that those racist groups see the handwriting on the wall and are in their last gasp of trying to change the tide of history. But, like a certain king, you can’t just walk out into the surf and change the tide…it’s going to roll right over you. Just like it rolled right over all those folks who tried to stand in the way of the civil rights movement, and those who have tried to stand in the way to block gay marriage. Oh, they have some victories, but the wars have been or will be lost by those racist types, in the end. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/266 "2017-08-17T14:59:00Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Something about those monuments that I haven’t seen mentioned that has nothing to do with racism is simply pride in being a southerner, pride in being tough and enduring. After the war the south was ripped to pieces, it took generations for those people to recover, for a lot of those people all they had was their pride. I don’t believe in what those statues represent either but I do believe in respecting people and I know enough not to assume that I know what that statue might mean to someone else. I hate to be so blunt but losers don’t get to have that sort of pride. They’re supposed to learn that they were on the wrong side of an issue and move on. They’re not supposed to keep passing on their poisonous beliefs to subsequent generations. It’s been 150+ fucking years already. They lost; their cause was unjust; they don’t get to rub it in the faces of those they would have kept as slaves by keeping monuments to men who defended the unjustifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/267 "2017-08-17T17:00:56Z")
The NY Review of Books has ungated this great McPherson essay:[Southern Comfort](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2001/04/12/southern-comfort/). ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/268 "2017-08-17T17:46:36Z")
I think all statues should be replaced with the [Greendale Human Being.](http://i.imgur.com/y6xSaG4.jpg) No race, no sex, no agenda. Just a human being. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/269 "2017-08-17T19:43:20Z")
As repugnant as these statues are, what is the argument for tearing them down while also being upset over ISIS tearing down ancient Mesopotamian statues? As monotheists, they find Pagan statues just as repugnant as we find Confederate monuments. How does one justify outrage over both situations? Not defending either one, but I want my moral indignation to be consistent. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/270 "2017-08-17T19:55:02Z")
We’ll, let’s see, they are not being blown up to smithereens, they are being removed, possibly relocated onto private land. The people of the nation want them gone, not some imposed junta, and they are mostly from the 20th century, not several hundred years old. So, there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/271 "2017-08-17T19:57:52Z")
I’m not upset over ISIS tearing down statues. I save my outrage for the violence they inflict on people. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/272 "2017-08-17T20:04:04Z")
> [@caligulathegod](#): > > As repugnant as these statues are, what is the argument for tearing them down while also being upset over ISIS tearing down ancient Mesopotamian statues? As monotheists, they find Pagan statues just as repugnant as we find Confederate monuments. How does one justify outrage over both situations? > > Not defending either one, but I want my moral indignation to be consistent. A large number of confederate statues were mass-produced and mail-ordered from the North during the Jim Crow era. Shoddily mass-produced, I should add, which is why they topple over so easily. I don’t know if you can compare a bunch of catalog statues to ancient Mesopotamia. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/273 "2017-08-17T20:07:01Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Washington and Jackson are [next](http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/08/16/jackson-washington-park-protest-presidents-slave-owners/). Even better, he wants to have Jackson Park repurposed to honor, wait for it, Michael Jackson. There are not enough roll eyes for that one. ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/274 "2017-08-17T20:09:11Z")
Use the horses to made a merry go round . ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/275 "2017-08-17T20:10:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m not upset over ISIS tearing down statues. I save my outrage for the violence they inflict on people. I’m more than a bit distressed when they destroy cultural heritage sites. Bad enough when they loot them, but the wanton destruction definitely tweaks my outrage meter. Not that I’m downplaying their violence either…it’s kind of a package deal. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/276 "2017-08-17T20:34:41Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’m more than a bit distressed when they destroy cultural heritage sites. Bad enough when they loot them, but the wanton destruction definitely tweaks my outrage meter. Not that I’m downplaying their violence either…it’s kind of a package deal. I’m not that sentimental, I guess. I also think there is a big difference between ioutsiders destroying ancient artifacts and communities destroying something in their own public square that was installed not that long ago, possibly even within living memory. There’s also a difference between destroying something out of religious chauvinism and destroying something that glorifies oppression and treason. I don’t understand why these nuances are so crystal clear to me, but **caligulathegod** doesn’t seem to see them. At any rate, I haven’t see a whole lot of people seriously talking about destroying anything. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/277 "2017-08-17T20:44:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m not that sentimental, I guess. > > I also think there is a big difference between ioutsiders destroying ancient artifacts and communities destroying something in their own public square that was installed not that long ago, possibly even within living memory. There’s also a difference between destroying something out of religious chauvinism and destroying something that glorifies oppression and treason. > > I don’t understand why these nuances are so crystal clear to me, but **caligulathegod** doesn’t seem to see them. > > At any rate, I haven’t see a whole lot of people seriously talking about destroying anything. I don’t think the situations are really analogous…was just commenting that I think the cultural destruction by ISIS definitely warrants some outrage. They have destroyed ancient sites that were there for thousands of years and removed that from our collective common human history forever. I think wrt the OP, the difference between me and most arguing in this thread is simply that I’m not good with a mob doing the destruction by fiat…I think that should be up to the people to decide collectively, not up to some folks taking it on themselves to do it. I think that such a stance by seeming the majority in this thread is short sighted, as I can see where, if another group wanted to take it on themselves to destroy stuff that many wouldn’t be nearly so keen to handwave it down. But at the core, I am probably in agreement with most that many of those monuments and statues should come down. It’s the details where we seem to differ, not the root. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/278 "2017-08-17T20:47:38Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > We’ll, let’s see, they are not being blown up to smithereens, they are being removed, possibly relocated onto private land. The people of the nation want them gone, not some imposed junta, and they are mostly from the 20th century, not several hundred years old. > > So, there’s that. Some are being pulled down by mobs, but that’s a distinction that does not really matter. The statues are being removed in both cases is the point. We can’t assume there aren’t locals that want the Mesopotamian statues gone. They \*are \* Muslim and opposed to idolatry and paganism on general principle. ISIS just has the power and motivation to actually do it. Is the time factor enough? > [@monstro](#): > > I’m not upset over ISIS tearing down statues. I save my outrage for the violence they inflict on people. Me too, but I was saddened by the loss of ancient culture. > [@GrandWino](#): > > A large number of confederate statues were mass-produced and mail-ordered from the North during the Jim Crow era. Shoddily mass-produced, I should add, which is why they topple over so easily. I don’t know if you can compare a bunch of catalog statues to ancient Mesopotamia. Perhaps, but the idea is still the same. The respective statues represent what is ultimately History but for the ones that live there they represent a questionable past. One argument I came up with was dependent on projection. Was the purpose of the Confederate statuary to honor a past glory or was it to intimidate certain citizens? I’m sure some might, but that’s a hard one to prove. Yes, they lost and it seems to odd to honor that past, but some Middle-Eastern cultures are based upon the same veneration of loss. They honor having stood up to their enemies. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/279 "2017-08-17T21:13:17Z")
> [@caligulathegod](#): > > One argument I came up with was dependent on projection. Was the purpose of the Confederate statuary to honor a past glory or was it to intimidate certain citizens? I’m sure some might, but that’s a hard one to prove. Yes, they lost and it seems to odd to honor that past, but some Middle-Eastern cultures are based upon the same veneration of loss. They honor having stood up to their enemies. And people who feel this way are free to erect their own monuments on their own property. No one is saying that people can’t have controversial monuments. But if I’m paying money to support my government like a good citizen, I’d like to be able to walk past city hall without seeing artistic expressions that strike me as politically and culturally offensive. If the government wants to sponsor an exhibit showcasing provocative art, I’m fine with that. But in such a case, it should open the doors to all expressions, not just the ones that speak from a certain political view. And none of those expressions should be made into permanent fixtures. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/280 "2017-08-17T21:30:41Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m not that sentimental, I guess. > > I also think there is a big difference between ioutsiders destroying ancient artifacts and communities destroying something in their own public square that was installed not that long ago, possibly even within living memory. There’s also a difference between destroying something out of religious chauvinism and destroying something that glorifies oppression and treason. > > I don’t understand why these nuances are so crystal clear to me, but **caligulathegod** doesn’t seem to see them. > > At any rate, I haven’t see a whole lot of people seriously talking about destroying anything. Religious chauvinism? Maybe you don’t realize how seriously Islam take the concept of monotheism vs polytheism. This isn’t a Sprinkle vs Dunk argument. To them, the pagan statues represent something just as repugnant as the Confederates are to us. Are the ones tearing down the statues in the South locals? Some are, but some aren’t. ISIS has locals in its membership. Don’t get me wrong. I’m for taking down the monuments, but I’m not sure if my personal feelings are justification, and I see the parallel with the ISIS situation. It all depends on context. If the statues are genuinely historical, then they might have a right to stay. If they are put up to intimidate or specifically to represent the worst aspects of the Southern cause (Like flying Confederate Flags have become, culturally), that’s something else. For instance, the 10 Commandments monuments. Those are never there to honor the concept of Law. They are put up to stake claim as religious monuments. They should not be on public property. On the Supreme Court building, I think there’s a Moses tableau. That makes sense in the context. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=15)