# What should we do with confederate monuments and statues? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694 "2017-08-15T01:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/321 "2017-08-21T15:57:40Z")
> [@divemaster](#): > > For those of you who think that there is not a slippery slope and that _of course_ right-minded folks can make a distinction between Confederate historical figures and our Founding Fathers, do I need to remind you that back in the '90s New Orleans was the city that scrubbed ALL names of slave-holders off their public schools? Including George Washington? Including a black founder of an orphanage? The policy makes no allowances for slave owners, regardless of their historical stature. Oh noes! Did the schools get worse because the teachers and students no longer respected the schools’ namesakes? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/322 "2017-08-21T16:06:42Z")
Can someone please explain what historical knowledge one gains from the sight of a guy riding a horse with just his name on the base? Is it something more than “This is someone the people thought needed honoring at the time”, requiring the viewer to go find out why? And why that same experience cannot be had in a museum one visits voluntarily instead of in a city square where it cannot be avoided? And why, if history is to be taught via statues, why a more complete history with statues of their victims wouldn’t be better? These monuments were erected as a warning, not a history lesson. Don’t let anyone keep pretending otherwise, the way they have for generations. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/323 "2017-08-21T16:08:24Z")
If, hypothetically, Washington DC was renamed Capital District… would America become less American? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/324 "2017-08-21T16:52:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If, hypothetically, Washington DC was renamed Capital District… would America become less American? If done to placate a violent, hypocritical, and radical minority of people? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/325 "2017-08-21T16:55:57Z")
> [@divemaster](#): > > It would not surprise me in the least if today Lee and Jackson and Forrest, and next year Washington and Jefferson. Keep watching the news. You’ll see. Maybe not this year–but’s it’s coming. The sky is falling! THE SKY IS FALLING!! That’s how hysterical you sound right now. I’m amazed by all the magical thinking that’s been exposed by this debate. Let’s say you’re right and after we’re done toppling the Confederates, we’re going to go after everyone else. So what? It’s not like we will forget history–for we will still have schools, including colleges and universities. We will still have libraries. We will still have museums. We will still have the internet. Monuments don’t teach history. Books and teachers do that. People will still be able to erect their own monuments on their own land. If the monuments are THAT important, surely people will buy them, right? If the Daughters of the Confederacy cared so much to commission these things, surely the organization cares enough to find good homes for them. If it isn’t willing or able to do this, that tells me all I need to know about how valuable these things are and how devoted the pro-monument people are to preserving history. How many pro-monument people really care about history education? Are they angry that states are only throwing pennies at public colleges and universities nowadays? Are they calling for increased public funding of historical societies and museums? Are they encouraging their college-age children to major in history? Do they patronize public libraries? Because I get the feeling that a lot of pro-monument people aren’t big supporters of these things. They’d rather pretend that monuments provide these services so they can portray themselves as champions of history education without actually _doing_ anything. Virtue signaling, that’s all this is. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/326 "2017-08-21T16:59:06Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If done to placate a violent, hypocritical, and radical minority of people? Yes. You have a pretty weak concept of what makes America what it is then, if that would be enough to diminish it in your view. I happen to think our Country is more resilient than that personally. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/327 "2017-08-21T17:23:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If done to placate a violent, hypocritical, and radical minority of people? Yes. I will not stand idly by as you criticize our Founding Fathers as being violent, hypocritical, and radical minority! Your statement is both factual and intolerable! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/328 "2017-08-21T19:25:38Z")
Can someone establish a market value for the statues, then force the localities to sell them the right to destroy them? Wut? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/329 "2017-08-21T21:51:08Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You have a pretty weak concept of what makes America what it is then, if that would be enough to diminish it in your view. I happen to think our Country is more resilient than that personally. Well, there are a few [Confederate monuments](https://twitter.com/david_tanenhaus/status/898538177081745409) that would diminish the entire nation were they destroyed or removed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/330 "2017-08-21T22:58:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If done to placate a violent, hypocritical, and radical minority of people? Yes. Try answering the actual question instead of making up additional stuff. And if you can’t or won’t, I’ll just assume you mean “no, America would not be less American.” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/331 "2017-08-21T23:08:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If done to placate a violent, hypocritical, and radical minority of people? Yes. So what you’re saying that as long as we don’t do it to placate your side, then it’s okay? Clearly should should rip down the confederate statues, since only a violent, hypocritical, and radical minority of people want to keep them. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/332 "2017-08-21T23:50:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If done to placate a violent, hypocritical, and radical minority of people? Yes. > [@Ravenman](#): > > I will not stand idly by as you criticize our Founding Fathers as being violent, hypocritical, and radical minority! Your statement is both factual and intolerable! I believe this is speaking of Trump voters. Hypocritical, minority, it’s all right there. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/333 "2017-08-22T00:00:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Try answering the actual question instead of making up additional stuff. And if you can’t or won’t, I’ll just assume you mean “no, America would not be less American.” Say what? How is that making anything up? People are capitulating to a violent and destructive mob. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/334 "2017-08-22T00:07:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Say what? How is that making anything up? People are capitulating to a violent and destructive mob. That mob of the past was also lynching minorities when those statues went up. What is happening now is doing what it should had been done centuries and then decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/335 "2017-08-22T00:19:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Say what? How is that making anything up? People are capitulating to a violent and destructive mob. Well, walk me through this: Charlottesville calmly decided to take down a statue; a violent and destructive mob showed up from out of town to protest that decision; and, as far as I can tell, Charlottesville shrugged and said _Well, You’ve Had Your Say, And We Heard You Loud And Clear, And, Believe Me: If We Were, Like, Even A Little Bit Impressed, We’d Totally Be Thinking About Capitulating To You Guys Right Now; But Since That Didn’t Happen, We’re, Uh, Standing Firm On Statue Removal._ Do I have that right, or did I miss something? And the other communities that have been reaching significantly similar decisions since then: same story, different story? What can you tell me? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/336 "2017-08-22T13:16:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Say what? How is that making anything up? People are capitulating to a violent and destructive mob. So you’re on board that America would not become less American if the city of Washington DC was hypothetically renamed. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/337 "2017-08-22T14:05:41Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I think it’s important to focus on the specific types of behavior that we consider evil rather than writing off the character of the individual in its entirety. Nazis had an evil ideology for sure, and yet there were probably Nazis who were loving family men and women, good parents, good grandparents, caring neighbors and so forth. It’s probably more productive and more likely to produce a favorable outcome if we avoid passing a sweeping judgment on the character of Southerners as being either good or evil individuals. That only stiffens the resistance against tearing down the statues. It’s much easier to get someone to agree that their behavior was evil than it is to get them to agree that the father of their grandfather or great grandfather, whom people alive today might have known, were somehow evil people. That doesn’t work either. Just pointing out that someone’s actions are less than utterly pure and noble is an insult to them, never mind their intentions. And a Nazi that was a loving family man, a good parent, a caring neighbor, and all around a great person to hang out with is not a good person if they also agree with the genocide of inferior races. And there’s a difference you can see there too. IF you go to germany, and know that someone’s grandfather was a Nazi, and you tell them that nazis were evil, they will almost certainly agree. They may even tell stories about how their grandfather was fighting for the wrong side. If you go to the south, and have the same conversation with someone about their great-great-great-grandfather, they will get massively offended. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/338 "2017-08-22T15:13:24Z")
There’s a reason it’s called Truth and Reconciliation. If the victor lets the fallen live in some revisionized partial truth, out of misplaced mercy, you don’t ever get to true reconciliation. They actually teach this in the history of warfare at West Point. When the truth instead becomes viewed as indelicate, and gets softened round the edges you don’t get to reconciliation. You get a festering open wound. Where both sides, decades later openly disdains the other. You can’t get to reconciliation without truth. Revisionism such as is so popular with those defending these statues, must be challenged. Again and again. Every time, until it is akin to holocaust denial, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/339 "2017-08-22T16:20:47Z")
So - a poll of Virginians: [https://massincpolling.com/2017/08/22/virginia-voters-divided-on-blame-for-charlottesville-violence/amp/](https://massincpolling.com/2017/08/22/virginia-voters-divided-on-blame-for-charlottesville-violence/amp/) \*Who do you think is most to blame for the violence that happened in Charlottesville this past weekend? \* 40% - The white nationalist marchers 6% - the counter-protesters 41% - both equally _On the Confederate monuments:_ 52% - symbols of Southern heritage 25% - racism and 28% - should be removed from public property 51% - should stay so - for all those who claim that removing the Confederate sculptures is democracy at work - since 51% of Virginians think they should stay (and only 28% want them to go), do you think they should stay? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/340 "2017-08-22T16:23:12Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > So - a poll of Virginians: > > [https://massincpolling.com/2017/08/22/virginia-voters-divided-on-blame-for-charlottesville-violence/amp/](https://massincpolling.com/2017/08/22/virginia-voters-divided-on-blame-for-charlottesville-violence/amp/) > > \*Who do you think is most to blame for the violence that happened in Charlottesville this past weekend? > \* > 40% - The white nationalist marchers > 6% - the counter-protesters > 41% - both equally > > _On the Confederate monuments:_ > > 52% - symbols of Southern heritage > 25% - racism > > and > > 28% - should be removed from public property > 51% - should stay > so - for all those who claim that removing the Confederate sculptures is democracy at work - since 51% of Virginians think they should stay (and only 28% want them to go), do you think they should stay? These decisions are being made by local, not state, governments. And they’re being made by elected representatives within the scope of their duties. So yes, these decisions are consistent with democracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=18)