# What should we do with confederate monuments and statues? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694 "2017-08-15T01:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/361 "2017-09-18T18:21:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m starting to realize that it doesn’t naturally occur to lots of people that feelings of offense should be given more weight than feelings of happiness and acceptance, _even when those who feel offended are outnumbered._ Like, say you’re hosting dinner for me and two other people, and two of us will eat anything while the other person only eats poultry. Isn’t it rude to serve pot roast based on the reasoning that “majority rules”? Yes, it is. There is nothing wrong with preparing something that everyone sitting at the table will either like or feel neutral about. Now let’s say your dinner guests have _paid_ you to cook for them. Isn’t it even ruder to side with the majority? OF COURSE IT IS. For 100+ years, the offended minority have been paying for something they don’t like for very valid reasons while people who don’t really have strong feelings have overruled them (while, as we’ve seen lately, accusing them of being history-hating titty-babies). Just because this is democratic doesn’t mean its right. The problem with this logic is that we live in a society where, to use your example, some don’t eat beef, others chicken, others pork, still more fish, etc. If we followed your logic, we’d end up with a dinner of rice and bread. ---
**Author:** ![Unabashed\_Fascist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/c2a13f/32.png) [@Unabashed\_Fascist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unabashed_Fascist)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/362 "2017-09-18T19:40:17Z")
I say put it to a vote in that municipality. If enough people want it gone, then it goes. If enough people want it to stay, then it stays. Whether it’s good or evil, harmful or helpful, artistically valuable is immaterial. If the hypothetical people of _Faketown USA_ decide they want to keep a statue of Hitler beheading a nun, then that’s all the justification needed. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/363 "2017-09-18T23:26:06Z")
I _like_ equestrian statues. So I’m for the next option: put some other name on the plaque. I imagine some of the statues are pretty generic, but who’s going to recognize the faces anyway? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/364 "2017-09-18T23:34:42Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I _like_ equestrian statues. So I’m for the next option: put some other name on the plaque. > > I imagine some of the statues are pretty generic, but who’s going to recognize the faces anyway? I don’t thing that just changing the names is going to make _anybody_ happy. (Well, except people who are already ignoring the rider to stare adoringly at the horse.) Everyone would know who the statue is actually about before the clumsy change, so the conservatives would be insulted at the insult against the deplorables the statues honored, and the liberals would be insulted by the idea you could fool them with such a cheap trick. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/365 "2017-09-18T23:50:30Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I don’t thing that just changing the names is going to make _anybody_ happy. (Well, except people who are already ignoring the rider to stare adoringly at the horse.) Everyone would know who the statue is actually about before the clumsy change, so the conservatives would be insulted at the insult against the deplorables the statues honored, and the liberals would be insulted by the idea you could fool them with such a cheap trick. Personally, I would be amused. Take the money of the racists who wanted to honor some Confederate douchebag and say it’s a statue of someone else entirely. I think most people would forget quickly who the statue was originally intended to honor. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/366 "2017-09-19T14:29:50Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I _like_ equestrian statues. So I’m for the next option: put some other name on the plaque. > > I imagine some of the statues are pretty generic, but who’s going to recognize the faces anyway? Believe it or not, this also appears to be illegal under the same Virginia law that Charlottesville is challenging in court. It also appears to be illegal to just refuse to maintain the statue and let it slowly crumble. [Link to law.](https://vacode.org/2016/15.2/II/18/3/15.2-1812/) ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/367 "2017-09-23T17:52:09Z")
> [@Unabashed\_Fascist](#): > > I say put it to a vote in that municipality. > > If enough people want it gone, then it goes. If enough people want it to stay, then it stays. > > Whether it’s good or evil, harmful or helpful, artistically valuable is immaterial. If the hypothetical people of _Faketown USA_ decide they want to keep a statue of Hitler beheading a nun, then that’s all the justification needed. This is as succinct an explanation of the “tyranny of the majority” as I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/368 "2017-09-23T18:07:49Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > This is as succinct an explanation of the “tyranny of the majority” as I’ve seen. I don’t think that’s how “tyranny of the majority” works. The whole point of singling out various rights for protection _against_ some sort of tyranny of the majority is because we’re concerned that the majority will vote to strip me of all my property – or to enslave me – or to execute me – or whatever, without so much as giving me a trial or whatever. But whenever individual rights _aren’t_ on the table – well, look, when the time came for our elected officials to debate whether to hereby designate one day of the year as National Pickle Day, we didn’t _need_ to combat majority rule, because we could just shrug and say _well, this is one of those times when there’s no reason to bother messing with democracy; as soon as someone’s rights are up for grabs, we should think twice about possibly-tyrannical government decisions – but this? Man, this right here is the stupid crap we can cheerfully leave to the majority._ ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/369 "2017-09-23T18:15:37Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > This is as succinct an explanation of the “tyranny of the majority” as I’ve seen. Nope, only ordinary majority rule. It isn’t “tyranny” when the majority decide they don’t want a statue of someone on public land. It would be tyranny indeed if they forbid you to have the statue up on your own private land. But that isn’t what’s being described. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/370 "2017-09-23T19:16:59Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Believe it or not, this also appears to be illegal under the same Virginia law that Charlottesville is challenging in court. > > It also appears to be illegal to just refuse to maintain the statue and let it slowly crumble. > > [Link to law.](https://vacode.org/2016/15.2/II/18/3/15.2-1812/) It’s hard for me to believe this law is, um, _legal_. How is this not an unconstitutional taking on the part of the Commonwealth of Virginia from the local governments? They can’t just say to those governments, “because you built X on your property, you aren’t allowed to change your mind and do something else instead there.” I’d be interested to know the grounds Charlottesville is challenging it on. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/371 "2017-09-23T19:54:52Z")
How is a state law advocating for treason against the US government even acceptable to begin with? ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/372 "2017-09-23T20:03:17Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > [And a new monument to the US civil war (not the Confederate, not the Union: the civil war) has been erected in Quebec, only this time it was properly done.](http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/were-just-interested-in-history-canada-gets-its-first-monument-to-the-u-s-civil-war) If the monuments that were erected were designed to honor ALL Civil War dead, I wouldn’t have a problem with them. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/373 "2017-09-23T21:02:26Z")
> [@Unabashed\_Fascist](#): > > I say put it to a vote in that municipality. > > If enough people want it gone, then it goes. If enough people want it to stay, then it stays. > > Whether it’s good or evil, harmful or helpful, artistically valuable is immaterial. If the hypothetical people of _Faketown USA_ decide they want to keep a statue of Hitler beheading a nun, then that’s all the justification needed. My point was not that the issue of Confederate statue removal constitutes tyranny of the majority; my point was that a simple majority constituting “justification” of a decision regardless of harm (presumably to the minority) or morality is a pretty good definition of the term. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/374 "2017-09-23T21:03:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How is a state law advocating for treason against the US government even acceptable to begin with? So, each state and each city should follow federal law to the best of their ability? That would be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/375 "2017-09-23T21:29:35Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > My point was not that the issue of Confederate statue removal constitutes tyranny of the majority; my point was that a simple majority constituting “justification” of a decision regardless of harm (presumably to the minority) or morality is a pretty good definition of the term. The thing is, for “a pretty good definition of the term” you presumably want to use terms that mark Tyranny Of The Majority off as a _subset_ of Majority Rule. Like, if I were to list a dozen different examples of majority-rule decisions, you’d be able to briskly relay which ones were mere democracy in action and deserved a shrug, and which ones were tyranny. And the answers should probably line up a lot like this: _should we name the new road Maple Drive?_ Yeah, that’s unobjectionable majority rule. But: _should we ban all Jews from practicing medicine?_ That’d be tyranny of the majority. _National Pickle Day,_ majority rule; _Muslims don’t get to practice their religion,_ tyranny of the majority. Right? Can you draw me up a “pretty good definition” that does that? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/376 "2017-09-23T22:43:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How is a state law advocating for treason against the US government even acceptable to begin with? Huh? What law are we talking about?? ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/377 "2017-09-26T23:25:16Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It’s hard for me to believe this law is, um, _legal_. How is this not an unconstitutional taking on the part of the Commonwealth of Virginia from the local governments? They can’t just say to those governments, “because you built X on your property, you aren’t allowed to change your mind and do something else instead there.” > > I’d be interested to know the grounds Charlottesville is challenging it on. From what I remember about living in Virginia, the state legislature can do whatever it likes to local jurisdictions. To quote Wikipedia: “In Virginia, the political subdivisions have only the legal powers specifically granted to them by the General Assembly and set forth under the Code of Virginia.” Other states use a home-rule doctrine, which gives local jurisdictions greater independence. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/378 "2017-09-27T05:42:38Z")
> [@Ispolkom](#): > > From what I remember about living in Virginia, the state legislature can do whatever it likes to local jurisdictions. To quote Wikipedia: “In Virginia, the political subdivisions have only the legal powers specifically granted to them by the General Assembly and set forth under the Code of Virginia.” Other states use a home-rule doctrine, which gives local jurisdictions greater independence. I understand that (I lived in Virginia for nearly 30 years, and I’m familiar with the fact that Virginia localities can only regulate the lives of their residents, or tax them, in ways specifically authorized by the legislature), but there’s a category difference between these two things - between their powers as a governing body and their rights as land owners. I’d still expect local governments, in their capacity as land owners, to have the same rights pertaining to the use of their real property that any private landowner has. It hardly seems legally tenable that, other than being answerable to their own voters, they’d have _less_ control over their land than a private land owner would. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/379 "2017-09-27T05:48:16Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’d still expect local governments, in their capacity as land owners, to have the same rights pertaining to the use of their real property that any private landowner has. I’m not sure. Local governments are agents of the state. At a fundamental level, the state itself owns all property owned by a city, just as it owns all property owned by the Department of Transportation. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/380 "2017-09-27T06:07:24Z")
Missed the edit window: As far as I know, _[Hunter v. Pittsburgh](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/207/161/case.html)_ is still good law in this area, and it actually deals directly with the takings issue: > [@](#): > > Municipal corporations are political subdivisions of the state, created as convenient agencies for exercising such of the governmental powers of the state as may be entrusted to them. For the purpose of executing these powers properly and efficiently, they usually are given the power to acquire, hold, and manage personal and real property. […] The state, therefore, at its pleasure…may take without compensation such property…conditionally or unconditionally, with or without the consent of the citizens, or even against their protest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=20)