# What should we do with confederate monuments and statues? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694 "2017-08-15T01:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/421 "2020-06-06T02:08:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Really? No matter the subject matter? So a swastika would be okay? How about a bunch of KKKers burning black children? How about Hitler on a mound of Jewish corpses? If those images were done with the same “artistic” skill and ability as Stone Mountain, would you fight efforts to change it? Swastika? Maybe. Swastikas are a common symbol in many cultures dating back thousands of years way before nazis. And the depictions of Lee, Jackson, and Davis are NOT, NOT, NOT showing what you claim they are. Its just 3 old guys on horseback. And the park sounds pretty fun. BTW, is there a 3000 acre park dedicated to liberals that has golf, hiking, roller coasters, dinosaurs, flume rides, and other fun things? Now their IS such a statue to a truly horrible leader. [The 131 ft statue of Genghis Khan in Mongolia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_statue_of_Genghis_Khan) Khan was truly one of the worlds most evil people killing millions. So should we demand the people of Mongolia tear it down? Heck it was only built in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/422 "2020-06-06T02:14:19Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Now their IS such a statue to a truly horrible leader. [The 131 ft statue of Genghis Khan in Mongolia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_statue_of_Genghis_Khan) Khan was truly one of the worlds most evil people killing millions. > > So should we demand the people of Mongolia tear it down? Heck it was only built in 2008. I’m not Mongolian, I am an American…but your pathetic “Look! Over there!” attempt is duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/423 "2020-06-06T02:40:24Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Swastika? Maybe. Swastikas are a common symbol in many cultures dating back thousands of years way before nazis. > > And the depictions of Lee, Jackson, and Davis are NOT, NOT, NOT showing what you claim they are. Its just 3 old guys on horseback. And the park sounds pretty fun. > > BTW, is there a 3000 acre park dedicated to liberals that has golf, hiking, roller coasters, dinosaurs, flume rides, and other fun things? > > Now their IS such a statue to a truly horrible leader. [The 131 ft statue of Genghis Khan in Mongolia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_statue_of_Genghis_Khan) Khan was truly one of the worlds most evil people killing millions. > > So should we demand the people of Mongolia tear it down? Heck it was only built in 2008. I don’t understand this at all. Are you saying that we should have statues and monuments that honor traitors to the United States? That we should have statues and monuments that honor those who fought to preserve slavery? Is that really what you are saying? And you provide a statue in Mongolia as your argument? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/424 "2020-06-06T03:17:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t understand this at all. Are you saying that we should have statues and monuments that honor traitors to the United States? That we should have statues and monuments that honor those who fought to preserve slavery? Is that really what you are saying? And you provide a statue in Mongolia as your argument? Forget it, he’s rolling. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/425 "2020-06-06T03:43:14Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > BTW, is there a 3000 acre park dedicated to liberals that has golf, hiking, roller coasters, dinosaurs, flume rides, and other fun things? Does Berkeley count? Your arguments are weak. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/426 "2020-06-06T12:21:50Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Now their IS such a statue to a truly horrible leader. [The 131 ft statue of Genghis Khan in Mongolia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_statue_of_Genghis_Khan) Khan was truly one of the worlds most evil people killing millions. > > So should we demand the people of Mongolia tear it down? Heck it was only built in 2008. Wow, jumped that shark with room to spare. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/427 "2020-06-06T12:45:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t understand this at all. Are you saying that we should have statues and monuments that honor traitors to the United States? That we should have statues and monuments that honor those who fought to preserve slavery? Is that really what you are saying? And you provide a statue in Mongolia as your argument? Build new ones? Of course not. Stone Mountain was started over 100 years ago. Dedicated 55 years ago. Times change. But its there and we should deal with it. We LEARN from the past. Both good and bad. Communities should feel free to remove any statue they like. I mean its their property. But you dont permit every whacko with a grudge to go around pulling down statues of whomever they like. Now after saying that if the state of Georgia chooses to dynamite Stone Mountain, then I say they have the right. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/428 "2020-06-06T12:48:49Z")
Question: Could Mt. Rushmore be built today? After all it was built on a sacred indian mountain and had depictions of 2 presidents who owned slaves. Also, would the US be better off without Mt. Rushmore? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/429 "2020-06-06T12:57:27Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Question: Could Mt. Rushmore be built today? After all it was built on a sacred indian mountain and had depictions of 2 presidents who owned slaves. > > Also, would the US be better off without Mt. Rushmore? Stone Mountain is a tribute to the defense of slavery. Mount Rushmore is not. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/430 "2020-06-06T14:28:43Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Stone Mountain is a tribute to the defense of slavery. Mount Rushmore is not. Excellent point. And as far as **Kimstu** ‘s suggestion for Stone Mountain, I have two reactions: 1. I love it!, and 2. Remind me to never piss you off! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/431 "2020-06-06T19:59:46Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Swastika? Maybe. Swastikas are a common symbol in many cultures dating back thousands of years way before nazis. Blame the Nazis then, for ruining a perfectly good symbol But yeah, if someone in the US or Europe is using Swastika’s, then they are almost certainly doing it for reasons that most of us would find quite objectionable. Now, in India, apparently, the Swastika is a fairly common symbol, and a Hitler is just a grumpy man. Context matters. > [@](#): > > And the depictions of Lee, Jackson, and Davis are NOT, NOT, NOT showing what you claim they are. Its just 3 old guys on horseback. And the park sounds pretty fun. Shows me three traitors who took up arms against their country in order to keep owning people. What do you see? > [@](#): > > BTW, is there a 3000 acre park dedicated to liberals that has golf, hiking, roller coasters, dinosaurs, flume rides, and other fun things? No, we don’t dedicate amusement parks to liberals, we mean them to be all inclusive. But thank you for admitting that this is a park that caters to a particular political position. > [@](#): > > Now their IS such a statue to a truly horrible leader. [The 131 ft statue of Genghis Khan in Mongolia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_statue_of_Genghis_Khan) Khan was truly one of the worlds most evil people killing millions. > > So should we demand the people of Mongolia tear it down? Heck it was only built in 2008. If I were Mongolian, I’d probably have an opinion on it, and my opinion would be relevant. Of interesting, if not necessarily relevant note, he is the great…grandfather of nearly a percent of the world’s population. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Build new ones? Of course not. Stone Mountain was started over 100 years ago. Dedicated 55 years ago. Times change. Yes, times change. Now we no longer honor those who took up arms against our country in order to be able to keep owning people. > [@](#): > > But its there and we should deal with it. We LEARN from the past. Both good and bad. Yes, and that is the difference between remembering the past and honoring it. Seeing a picture of it in a hitory book may teach you something. Seeing it in all its “glory” only tells you that the people who made this really like people who took up arms against our country in order to continue to own people. > [@](#): > > Communities should feel free to remove any statue they like. I mean its their property. But you dont permit every whacko with a grudge to go around pulling down statues of whomever they like. So, would you say that if a city wants to get rid of a statue in it’s jurisdiction, the state that that city is within should not interfere? > [@](#): > > Now after saying that if the state of Georgia chooses to dynamite Stone Mountain, then I say they have the right. I agree, and as a non-resident of Georgia, I can only offer opinion, not actual call to action. But I think that we’d be better off as a nation and as a world if our history books have a picture of stone mountain next to a picture of stone mountain being dynamited. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Question: Could Mt. Rushmore be built today? After all it was built on a sacred indian mountain and had depictions of 2 presidents who owned slaves. I’d be more worried about environmental concerns and, as you said, encroachment onto territory that others find to be sacred than about who exactly is being depicted. But, you seem to miss the point. We do honor these people for what they did right. I don’t know if we need their giant busts on a mountain to do so, but it is a bit different than honoring those who turned against their country in order to keep owning people. > [@](#): > > Also, would the US be better off without Mt. Rushmore? I honestly don’t see how it makes us any better off. Intrinsically, it is no better or worse than the worlds largest ball of rubber bands as a tourist trap. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/432 "2020-06-06T20:01:10Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > A kid wont suddenly learn more because his school was renamed from Robert E Lee High to Malcolm X High. Kids learn something from the fact that their school’s named for Robert E. Lee. If they didn’t, why would we name things for people? Would you want to go to a school named for somebody who thought you should be a slave, and agreed with your being forbidden to learn to read? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/433 "2020-06-06T20:51:54Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > [The 131 ft statue of Genghis Khan in Mongolia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_statue_of_Genghis_Khan) Khan was truly one of the worlds most evil people killing millions. > > So should we demand the people of Mongolia tear it down? Heck it was only built in 2008. > [@](#): > > In the trial of Nazi war criminal Klaus Barbie, the controversial lawyer Jacques Vergès tried to present what was defined as a Tu Quoque Defence—i.e., that during the Algerian War, French officers such as General Jacques Massu had committed war crimes similar to those with which Barbie was being charged, and therefore the French state had no moral right to try Barbie. This defense was rejected by the court, which convicted Barbie. > [[Cohen, William “The Algerian War, the French State and Official Memory” pages 219-239 from Réflexions Historiques, Vol. 28, No. 2, Summer 2002 page 230.]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque#Example) Surely you can find a better argument that has some shred of logic in it. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/434 "2020-06-07T07:46:56Z")
Forgive me for coming in late. I have not read the preceding posts. I am disappointed nobody has installed a to-scale frilly lampshade on one of these things as a temporary installation. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/435 "2020-06-07T07:50:00Z")
Stone mountain is morally bankrupt and nothing more than a shrine for racists pretending that their way of life is decent and noble, when the reality is that their history and culture is an abomination. > **[Stone Mountain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#Confederate_Memorial)** > > Stone Mountain is a quartz monzonite dome monadnock and the site of Stone Mountain Park, 16 miles (26 km) east of Atlanta, Georgia. Outside the park is the small city of Stone Mountain, Georgia. The park is the most visited tourist site in the state of Georgia. > The park is owned by the state of Georgia. At its summit, the elevation is 1,686 feet (514 m) above sea level and 825 feet (251 m) above the surrounding area. Stone Mountain is well known for not only its geology, but also the enormous ro... > [@](#): > > The rebirth of the Ku Klux Klan – the second Klan — was inspired by D. W. Griffith’s 1915 Klan-glorifying film, The Birth of a Nation. . . . On November 25 of the same year, Thanksgiving Day, a small group, including fifteen robed and hooded “charter members” of the new organization, met at the summit of Stone Mountain to create a new iteration of the Klan. . . . Stone Mountain was the location of an annual Labor Day cross-burning ceremony for the next 50 years > . . . . > Fundraising for the monument resumed in 1923. In October of that year, Venable granted the Klan easement with perpetual right to hold celebrations as they desired.[29] The influence of the UDC continued, in support of Mrs. Plane’s vision of a carving explicitly for the purpose of creating a Confederate memorial. She suggested in a letter to the first sculptor, Gutzon Borglum: > > I feel it is due to the Klan[,] which saved us from Negro dominations [sic] and carpetbag rule, that it be immortalized on Stone Mountain. Why not represent a small group of them in their nightly uniform approaching in the distance?[6]:21[20] > > The UDC [United Daughters of the Confederacy] established the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial Association (SMCMA) for fundraising and on-site supervision of the project. Venable and Borglum, who were both closely associated with the Klan, arranged to pack the SMCMA with Klan members. > . . . . > In response to Brown v. Board of Education of 1954 and the birth of the Civil Rights Movement, in 1958, at the urging of segregationist Governor Marvin Griffin,[6]:21 the Georgia legislature approved a measure to purchase Stone Mountain at a price of $1.125 million. In 1963 Walker Hancock was selected to complete the carving, and work began in 1964. > **[Billie Holiday | 1939: "Strange Fruit" and Commodore Records](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Holiday#1939:_%22Strange_Fruit%22_and_Commodore_Records)** > > Holiday was in the middle of recording for Columbia in the late 1930s when she was introduced to "Strange Fruit", a song by Abel Meeropol based on his poem about lynching. Meeropol, a Jewish schoolteacher from the Bronx, used the pseudonym "Lewis Allan" for the poem, which was set to music and performed at teachers' union meetings. It was eventually heard by Barney Josephson, the proprietor of Café Society, an integrated nightclub in Greenwich Village, who introduced it to Holiday. She perfor For... Billie Holiday sang Strange Fruit for two decades until her death, the year following the purchase of Stone Mountain [ibid], and said that the imagery of the song reminded her of her father’s death due to racial prejudice denied medical treatment. Here are the lyrics of Strange Fruit. Read them slowly and carefully. Imagine a person whom you love more than the world itself – your child, your spouse, your sibling, your parent – suffering such a fate at the hands of racists. Then ask yourself what you can and will do to about racism. > [@](#): > > Southern trees bear a strange fruit > Blood on the leaves and blood at the root > Black bodies swingin’ in the Southern breeze > Strange fruit hangin’ from the poplar trees > Pastoral scene of the gallant South > The bulgin’ eyes and the twisted mouth > Scent of magnolias sweet and fresh > Then the sudden smell of burnin’ flesh > Here is a fruit for the crows to pluck > For the rain to gather > For the wind to suck > For the sun to rot > For the tree to drop > Here is a strange and bitter crop For any who do not understand the lyrics, here is a film of Billie Holiday singing Strange Fruit in her final year, overlayed with images of the 1911 lynchings of Laura and L.D Nelson in Okemah Oklahoma.[spoiler] > [@](#): > > [This 1959 live performance features Billie Holiday doing her most important song combined with images of the 1911 lynchings of Laura and L.D Nelson in Okemah Oklahoma. Images of their hangings were imprinted on post cards and sold to tourists.](https://youtu.be/Szxi-u52Dkg) [/spoiler] [ [URL=“[Lynching of Michael Donald - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_of_Michael_Donald)”]The last successfully prosecuted Klu Klux Klan lynching was in 1981]([billie holiday - "Strange Fruit" Live 1959 lyrics - Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=billie+holiday+-+%22Strange+Fruit%22+Live+1959+lyrics&oq=billie+holiday+-+%22Strange+Fruit%22+Live+1959+lyrics&aqs=chrome..69i57.10426j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)), but the race based assaults and murders continue, including racial assaults and murders by police. Klan, Nazis, White Supremacists, Aryans, White Nationalists . . . [the list of hate groups is long](http://https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/groups). As of 5 June 2020, here is what the UN as to say about the USA – and it isn’t kind – it is unfailingly damning: “[UN experts condemn modern-day racial terror lynchings in US and call for systemic reform and justice.](http://https://ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=25933&LangID=E)” “[Statement on the Protests against Systemic Racism in the United States.](https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=25927&LangID=E)” Tragically, Americans freely elected [a racist strongman who now wants to send in the troops against the American people](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/misc.php?do=bbcode) rather than recognize that racism – social, economic, violent and murderous racism – is endemic in the USA and must be acted upon if the USA is to become a free country rather than a country that shackles so very many of its citizens socially, economically and physically. [The self-proclaimed “land of the free” has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world arguably other than North Korea and China.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate) The USA is highly racialized against blacks – if you doubt it, here’s yet another UN report that excoriates the USA: [Report to the United Nations on Racial Disparities in the U.S. Criminal Justice System](https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/). Despite this, the shrine of the white racists stands and generations of black blood is on their hands and the hands of all who, whether they accept that they are racists or not, prefer for the racist shrine of the fractured country to remain. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/436 "2020-06-07T10:41:32Z")
So should we also tear down any statue dedicated to venerating Americans who fought in the Vietnam war? Should we instead put up statues dedicated to Jane Fonda and other members of the antiwar movement? I mean think about it. Americans went over and invaded a foreign nation. We bombed the hell out of that country. We spread agent orange. We left mines everywhere. Our soldiers murdered and raped innocent Vietnamese (ever heard of the Mai lai massacre?). So why the hell do we have statues and monuments honoring Americans who served in that war? And what about the Alamo? When we ignore Hollywood the Alamo was part of a war by Americans to steal land from Mexico. And part of why they wanted to steal Texas was so they could import slaves into Texas. Note - Jim Bowie was a slave trader and had his slave with him and yep, there is a statue to him. many Mexicans have a totally different perception of the battle and look at Mexican general Santa Anna as a a hero. So should we tear down the Alamo and all statues and monuments to the dirty rotten slave holding "[Norteamericanos"](http://www.sonsofdewittcolony.org/adp/archives/maps/sanchezdoc.html) who stayed inside? How about monuments to the war War of 1812? England at that time, had outlawed slavery and during the War of 1812 British ships raided the American coast and freed about 4,000 slaves held in the US. Also American indians with weapons obtained from the British, fought Americans in order to save their homelands. So why should we honor the Americans who fought in that war? Getting back to the Civil War and Stone Mountain. Yes, I guess you could say the men were traitors. But then what was George Washington and the men of the American revolution (which really was a civil war also between the loyalists and the separatists)? Were they not traitors to the crown? If the American revolution had gone the other way with the British winning would there be still statues to George Washington (also a slave owner)? Should we destroy the Hunley and the museum dedicated to it? Furthermore if you study the Civil War many on the Union side could care less about slavery. In fact some had themselves been or still were slave owners. Black soldiers in the Union army, were paid half as much as white soldiers. [Several states such as Illinois had passed laws in the 1850’s to keep any blacks from settling there.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/20/opinion/sunday/anti-immigration-laws-black-pioneers.html) So was the union side so squeaky clean? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/437 "2020-06-07T10:48:37Z")
Tu quoque again. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/438 "2020-06-07T10:55:00Z")
To add on to what I said earlier, most things “Dixie” related used to be very common all over the south but they are being quietly removed. For example Dolly Parton owns a restaurant called [“The Stampede”](https://dpstampede.com/). But just a few years ago it was called the "[Dixie Stampede"](https://slate.com/culture/2017/08/visiting-dolly-partons-dinner-show-dixie-stampede.html) and depicted a tribute to rebs, yanks, and the antebellum south. Partons theme park “Dollywood” was built upon a previous park that had gone under called[The Rebel Railroad"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollywood). In the old tv show “Dukes of Hazzard” they drove a car called the General Lee and had a confederate flag on top. That has ended. So the world has moved on and with it, the honoring of the south. Not thru tearing down statues but just thru quiet pressure and the recognition that things related to the confederacy are not so good. So lets just keep it at that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/439 "2020-06-07T11:04:11Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > To add on to what I said earlier, most things “Dixie” related used to be very common all over the south but they are being quietly removed. For example Dolly Parton owns a restaurant called [“The Stampede”](https://dpstampede.com/). But just a few years ago it was called the "[Dixie Stampede"](https://slate.com/culture/2017/08/visiting-dolly-partons-dinner-show-dixie-stampede.html) and depicted a tribute to rebs, yanks, and the antebellum south. Partons theme park “Dollywood” was built upon a previous park that had gone under called[The Rebel Railroad"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollywood). In the old tv show “Dukes of Hazzard” they drove a car called the General Lee and had a confederate flag on top. That has ended. > > So the world has moved on and with it, the honoring of the south. Not thru tearing down statues but just thru quiet pressure and the recognition that things related to the confederacy are not so good. > > So lets just keep it at that. This is part of that process of “the world moving on with it”. Yes, we’re moving on, and getting rid of those symbols that were largely put in place to demonstrate support for white supremacism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/440 "2020-06-07T11:56:57Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So should we also tear down any statue dedicated to venerating Americans who fought in the Vietnam war? > > Should we instead put up statues dedicated to Jane Fonda and other members of the antiwar movement? > > I mean think about it. Americans went over and invaded a foreign nation. We bombed the hell out of that country. We spread agent orange. We left mines everywhere. Our soldiers murdered and raped innocent Vietnamese (ever heard of the Mai lai massacre?). So why the hell do we have statues and monuments honoring Americans who served in that war? > > And what about the Alamo? When we ignore Hollywood the Alamo was part of a war by Americans to steal land from Mexico. And part of why they wanted to steal Texas was so they could import slaves into Texas. Note - Jim Bowie was a slave trader and had his slave with him and yep, there is a statue to him. many Mexicans have a totally different perception of the battle and look at Mexican general Santa Anna as a a hero. So should we tear down the Alamo and all statues and monuments to the dirty rotten slave holding "[Norteamericanos"](http://www.sonsofdewittcolony.org/adp/archives/maps/sanchezdoc.html) who stayed inside? > > How about monuments to the war War of 1812? England at that time, had outlawed slavery and during the War of 1812 British ships raided the American coast and freed about 4,000 slaves held in the US. Also American indians with weapons obtained from the British, fought Americans in order to save their homelands. So why should we honor the Americans who fought in that war? > > Getting back to the Civil War and Stone Mountain. Yes, I guess you could say the men were traitors. But then what was George Washington and the men of the American revolution (which really was a civil war also between the loyalists and the separatists)? Were they not traitors to the crown? If the American revolution had gone the other way with the British winning would there be still statues to George Washington (also a slave owner)? > > Should we destroy the Hunley and the museum dedicated to it? > > Furthermore if you study the Civil War many on the Union side could care less about slavery. In fact some had themselves been or still were slave owners. Black soldiers in the Union army, were paid half as much as white soldiers. [Several states such as Illinois had passed laws in the 1850’s to keep any blacks from settling there.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/20/opinion/sunday/anti-immigration-laws-black-pioneers.html) So was the union side so squeaky clean? Do you know what this reminds me of? The student courtroom scene in _Animal House_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=23)