# What should we do with confederate monuments and statues? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694 "2017-08-15T01:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/81 "2017-08-15T16:24:31Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > This one. All over the world there are statues of and monuments to people who were Not Nice in one way or another. Do we get rid of all of them too? America needs to grow up. Look around the UK for statues of guys that tried to tear apart the nation. Try to find a statue of such a Guy that’s not on fire. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/82 "2017-08-15T16:34:55Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > This one. All over the world there are statues of and monuments to people who were Not Nice in one way or another. Do we get rid of all of them too? America needs to grow up. Speaking in my official capacity _as_ a grown-up, I think we can stop somewhere short of “were Not Nice in one way or another.” I’ve met a great many grown-ups who’ve come to realize that folks don’t need to choose between All and None. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/83 "2017-08-15T16:35:43Z")
First of all, we don’t know what Lincoln would have decided, because he died before Reconstruction. He didn’t want to try the traitors for their treason, OK, that we can debate. But did he ever say that he wanted them honored for their treason? Military bases named after the traitors? The flag of treason flying over government buildings? Because that’s what we actually did, and the result has been that our self-inflicted wounds have continued to fester for another century and a half, and we still can’t picture how they might eventually be healed. It’s hard to imagine any response being less effective than that. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/84 "2017-08-15T16:50:47Z")
Seeing that statue being torn down in Durham, NC made me think of [Silent Sam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Sam) on my old stomping grounds down the road in Chapel Hill, NC. I just learned today that the statue was funded by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Every few years people make some noise about getting rid of Sam but the heritage, tradition, blah, blah, blah folks always seem to win out. Maybe now is the time to be rid of him once and for all. Also, just to the left of of Sam’s gaze is the intersection of Franklin and Henderson Streets. Many Tarheels walk past this intersection every day but few notice the plaque that proclaims this stretch of road is also part of the [Jefferson Davis Memorial Highway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Davis_Highway). I also learned today that that was a project funded by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Fuck those bitches. That shit needs to go too. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/85 "2017-08-15T16:56:56Z")
Silent Sam in the news… [Demonstrators drape ‘Silent Sam’ in black hood following Charlottesville violence](http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article167039347.html) Also, there’s a 2015 North Carolina law that makes it [more difficult to remove confederate statues](http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article167197832.html). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/86 "2017-08-15T17:01:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Look around the UK for statues of guys that tried to tear apart the nation. Henry VIII? Charles Stuart? Oliver Cromwell? Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/87 "2017-08-15T17:57:26Z")
So it has come to this: [http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/15/abrams-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/](http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/15/abrams-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/) What are they going to do? Dynamite it? I guess they could hire the Taliban engineers - they have some [experience](https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_10/910836/150302-buddha-0631_3dbee7d3ecde6850cad306739a2aa7db.nbcnews-ux-600-480.jpg) in this area. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/88 "2017-08-15T18:11:39Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > So it has come to this: > > [http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/15/abrams-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/](http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/15/abrams-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/) > > What are they going to do? Dynamite it? I guess they could hire the Taliban engineers - they have some [experience](https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_10/910836/150302-buddha-0631_3dbee7d3ecde6850cad306739a2aa7db.nbcnews-ux-600-480.jpg) in this area. This comes up regularly, and as always, [I’ll point to the common-sense solution that we can all agree on.](http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/16/us/georgia-stone-mountain-outkast-confederate-monument/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/89 "2017-08-15T18:11:55Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > So it has come to this: > > [http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/15/abrams-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/](http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/15/abrams-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/) > > What are they going to do? Dynamite it? I guess they could hire the Taliban engineers - they have some [experience](https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_10/910836/150302-buddha-0631_3dbee7d3ecde6850cad306739a2aa7db.nbcnews-ux-600-480.jpg) in this area. This isn’t new – there was a proposal in 2015 to get rid of the carving, even if it didn’t go anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/90 "2017-08-15T18:15:18Z")
Honestly, this comparison with the Taliban is so bloody ridiculous. Maintaining history does not require honoring villains. If I erected a statue of Heinrich Himmler in the center of Berlin, and someone decided it should be torn down, that is not erasing the history of the Second World War. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/91 "2017-08-15T18:16:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > First of all, we don’t know what Lincoln would have decided, because he died before Reconstruction. He didn’t want to try the traitors for their treason, OK, that we can debate. But did he ever say that he wanted them honored for their treason? Military bases named after the traitors? The flag of treason flying over government buildings? Because that’s what we actually did, and the result has been that our self-inflicted wounds have continued to fester for another century and a half, and we still can’t picture how they might eventually be healed. It’s hard to imagine any response being less effective than that. I am reminded of this passage from McPherson when people talk about Lincoln’s policies on Reconstruction. > [@McPherson](#): > > [O]n April 11 he delivered from a White House balcony a carefully prepared speech on peace and reconstruction to a crowd celebrating Union victory. “There is no authorized organ for us to treat with,” he said— thereby disposing of state governments as well as Jefferson Davis’s fugitive government. “We must simply begin with, and mould from, disorganized and discordant elements.” This he had done in Louisiana, Arkansas, and Tennessee. Defending the government of Louisiana, Lincoln conceded that he would prefer it to have enfranchised literate Negroes and black veterans. He hoped that it would soon do so; as for the unreconstructed states, Lincoln promised an announcement soon of a new policy for their restoration to the Union. > > At least one listener interpreted this speech as moving Lincoln closer to the radical Republicans. “That means nigger citizenship,” snarled John Wilkes Booth to a companion. “Now, by God, I’ll put him through. That is the last speech he will ever make." And so it was the last speech he ever made. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/92 "2017-08-15T18:17:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This isn’t new – there was a proposal in 2015 to get rid of the carving, even if it didn’t go anywhere. Glad it didn’t. Are you sure it won’t go anywhere this time? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/93 "2017-08-15T18:22:45Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Glad it didn’t. Are you sure it won’t go anywhere this time? No, hopefully it will gain more support this time due to the close association between Stone Mountain and the KKK. If it were thousands of years old, I’d feel differently. But it’s just a century old, with close ties to the KKK, and originating from a white supremacist (or white supremacist-leaning) organization, and I have no problem with getting rid of it. Monuments are changed, moved, and destroyed all the time, and always have been. There’s nothing new about the concept of altering (and even destroying) what is celebrated publicly in society when values evolve. Every generation will decide what monuments they want to keep, and which ones to get rid of, no matter what we decide. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/94 "2017-08-15T18:30:17Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > So it has come to this: > > [http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/15/abrams-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/](http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/15/abrams-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/) > > What are they going to do? Dynamite it? I guess they could hire the Taliban engineers - they have some [experience](https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_10/910836/150302-buddha-0631_3dbee7d3ecde6850cad306739a2aa7db.nbcnews-ux-600-480.jpg) in this area. I like the idea of leaving the carvings in place, but adding one of Dr. King above them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/95 "2017-08-15T18:40:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I like the idea of leaving the carvings in place, but adding one of Dr. King above them. I was thinking on making it more up to date, more monumental and contextual by adding Lincoln and other heroes of the United States. Larger figures and surrounding the rebels. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/96 "2017-08-15T18:43:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Look around the UK for statues of guys that tried to tear apart the nation. Try to find a statue of such a Guy that’s not on fire. not sure if you are serious but…[there’s this](http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-guy-fawkes-spirit-of-carnival-statue-high-street-bridgwater-somerset-50405334.html). oh, and one of that British traitor [George Washington](https://www.guidelondon.org.uk/blog/around-london/statues-6-american-presidents-london/) smack bang in the middle of London. A statue doesn’t necessarily glorify the person and it certainly doesn’t in this case. Would the Italians tear down a statue of Caligula because he massacred the tribes of the north, fucked or killed anything that moved and made his horse a senator? of course not. They’d leave it there with a stern note to remind everyone that this is the type of dipshit you get if you go in for that supreme leader crap. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/97 "2017-08-15T18:48:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Look around the UK for statues of guys that tried to tear apart the nation. Try to find a statue of such a Guy that’s not on fire. There’s a statue of George Washington in Trafalgar Square… ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/98 "2017-08-15T18:48:53Z")
Maybe people can learn from these kind of things because this thread inspired me to look up the history of the carving on Stone Mountain. So it turns out the Venable Brothers, who were behind the founding of the second KKK, and the United Daughters of the Confederacy, seriously ladies, got together in 1916 and decided that the site of the founding of the second KKK was a pretty good spot for a confederate memorial. A bunch of people worked on the project including Gutzon Borglum who abandoned it in 1925 to go work on Mt. Rushmore. At one point it sat half finished for three decades until the state of Georgia bought the mountain and took over the project. It was completed in 1972 on the taxpayer’s dime. So yeah, I’m OK with dynamiting it. My distant second choice would be MLK carved above them, but only if he was pissing on them. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/99 "2017-08-15T18:53:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s happening now, with a statue taken down and another defaced. Prior to this week I would have called that vandalism but the Charlottesville protesters made this happen. That’s silly. It’s still vandalism. Leave it up to the states and municipalities or private owners to do with their property as they wish. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/100 "2017-08-15T18:55:29Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > not sure if you are serious but…[there’s this](http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-guy-fawkes-spirit-of-carnival-statue-high-street-bridgwater-somerset-50405334.html). oh, and one of that British traitor [George Washington](https://www.guidelondon.org.uk/blog/around-london/statues-6-american-presidents-london/) smack bang in the middle of London. > > A statue doesn’t necessarily glorify the person and it certainly doesn’t in this case. Would the Italians tear down a statue of Caligula because he massacred the tribes of the north, fucked or killed anything that moved and made his horse a senator? of course not. They’d leave it there with a stern note to remind everyone that this is the type of dipshit you get if you go in for that supreme leader crap. Wait? There is a statue of a slave owning traitor in London? That’s almost as inflammatory as a statue of Lenin in Seattle. But seriously, statues aren’t out committing crimes and making areas blighted. What good is making a huge fuss out of what most people don’t even notice? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=6)