# What should we do with confederate monuments and statues? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694 "2017-08-15T01:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/101 "2017-08-15T19:02:19Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Once the rebellion was over and Lee had the opportunity to show his true colours, he advocated for the deportation of blacks and for blacks not being permitted to vote. > > Lee was a very bad person. Robert E. Lee was unusually bad as a slaveowner too. He had a bunch of slaves run away, when he caught them he ordered a constable to whip them. The constable refused to beat the woman slaves so Robert handled that task personally (that’s to say, he had more taste for cruelty than a standard Virginia police officer under slavery). > **[Arlington, Bobby Lee, and the 'Peculiar Institution'](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/08/arlington-bobby-lee-and-the-peculiar-institution/61428/)** > > An examination of Robert E. Lee's complicated position on the institution of slavery ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/102 "2017-08-15T19:04:12Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Statues aren’t for teaching they’re for glorifying, in my opinion. A lot of the current mess _could_ be assigned to the long, continuous glorification of that which should only ever have been despised. > > No favours were done to America in letting the defeated celebrate their ‘war heroes’/ racist leaders. > > ‘A man of his times.’, is an utterly meaningless phrase that includes every tyrant and madman from Hitler to Pol Pot. We are ALL ‘of our times’, that alone does not excuse our barbarism nor provide cover for celebrating it, in my opinion. > > It’s decades late, but it’s going to have to happen, sooner or later. Southern gentility is not an exceptable reason to turn a blind eye to the public admiration of, what in the fullness of time are clearly believers in racism who fought _against_ the declared values of your constitution. > > You have done yourselves no favours in convincing yourselves it’s somehow okay to just leave these things standing, all these years. Its simply an open, festering wound. It’s time to correct that mistake and tear them down. All of them. > > No museum, or gallery either, in my opinion. Just melt them down. Use the material to make a statue celebrating the next hero that unites both sides on this issue instead. We should also go door to door collecting books and other material we disagree with as well. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/103 "2017-08-15T19:05:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Wait? There is a statue of a slave owning traitor in London? That’s almost as inflammatory as a statue of Lenin in Seattle. > > But seriously, statues aren’t out committing crimes and making areas blighted. What good is making a huge fuss out of what most people don’t even notice? No fuss is necessary – let’s just get rid of monuments that celebrate and honor monstrous moral crimes. No big deal. It’s happened many times in history and is continuing to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/104 "2017-08-15T19:07:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s silly. It’s still vandalism. Leave it up to the states and municipalities or private owners to do with their property as they wish. The city council of Charlottesville, VA voted for this statue to be removed and sold to private owners. Alt-righters gathered to oppose the will of the people three times: 13 May 2017, 8 July 2017, and most recently 12 August 2017. These are the people freaking out about locals deciding which statues should exist in their home town. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/105 "2017-08-15T19:08:29Z")
I say leave them for the historical context. They have been there all our lives and are an important part of history. Native Americans fought against the USA too (and with good reason) but no one wants to take down their statues. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/106 "2017-08-15T19:08:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No fuss is necessary – let’s just get rid of monuments that celebrate and honor monstrous moral crimes. No big deal. It’s happened many times in history and is continuing to happen. I know. Destruction of most of Akhenaten’s legacy for example. Oh, he was a slave owner too. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/107 "2017-08-15T19:12:29Z")
I saw let each community decide. These protests were people from lots of other states and communities. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/108 "2017-08-15T19:13:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > But seriously, statues aren’t out committing crimes and making areas blighted. What good is making a huge fuss out of what most people don’t even notice? That cuts both ways, doesn’t it? To the extent that you’re right, what good is making a huge fuss out of getting rid of 'em? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/109 "2017-08-15T19:16:51Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > I know. Destruction of most of Akhenaten’s legacy for example. Oh, he was a slave owner too. And the Nazi monuments too. Was it wrong for the Germans to get rid of them? If not, then we’re just arguing about which particular monuments should be removed, not about the concept of removing monuments altogether. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/110 "2017-08-15T19:20:30Z")
Who do other nations honor with statues? In St Martin, there are [statues at or near most roundabouts](https://www.google.com/search?q=st+martin+roundabout+statues&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjro6__9tnVAhVIQyYKHQjNAV8Q_AUICygC&biw=1366&bih=635). A few notable honorees: Jean Frederique Brooks aka “Tata the Bus driver" (he drove a school bus) Alexander Lionald Richardson aka “Alec the Butcher” (he cut meat) Florian Eulalie Duzanson aka “Lalie" (a baker and humanitarian) Mr. Osborne Kruythoff aka “the traffic man” (an old dude who loved directing traffic) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/111 "2017-08-15T19:22:17Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Henry VIII? Charles Stuart? Oliver Cromwell? Etc. I don’t know much about Henry VIII or Charles Stuart statues, but I do recall that some MPs wanted to get rid of the Cromwell statue in Westminster. So you can’t pretend that his statue isn’t controversial. (ETA: I thought it was Tony Blair but my memory was wrong) > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > not sure if you are serious but…[there’s this](http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-guy-fawkes-spirit-of-carnival-statue-high-street-bridgwater-somerset-50405334.html). oh, and one of that British traitor [George Washington](https://www.guidelondon.org.uk/blog/around-london/statues-6-american-presidents-london/) smack bang in the middle of London. Why was the statue of George Washington erected? Perhaps to celebrate the special relationship between the UK and the US that had long since gotten back on track in the post-Great War era? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That cuts both ways, doesn’t it? To the extent that you’re right, what good is making a huge fuss out of getting rid of 'em? Since both arguments hold some weight of why should the status quo change, the only fair solution is to return to status quo ante. All Confederate statues pre-1865 can stay. The others go. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/112 "2017-08-15T19:27:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Jean Frederique Brooks aka “Tata the Bus driver" (he drove a school bus) > Alexander Lionald Richardson aka “Alec the Butcher” (he cut meat) > Florian Eulalie Duzanson aka “Lalie" (a baker and humanitarian) > Mr. Osborne Kruythoff aka “the traffic man” (an old dude who loved directing traffic) But do they call me “MacPherson the Fence Builder”? Nay! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/113 "2017-08-15T19:43:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That cuts both ways, doesn’t it? To the extent that you’re right, what good is making a huge fuss out of getting rid of 'em? Because the people of the state may actually like having them? Of course they will fuss back when a fuss is made over the statues. And furthermore, you will never please the radicals who want remove anything associated with something not congruent with their interpretation of 21st century morality. President Wilson was a deplorable and had to go. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/04/27/princeton-to-remove-overly-celebratory-mural-of-woodrow-wilson/?utm\_term=.40caacb57e48](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/04/27/princeton-to-remove-overly-celebratory-mural-of-woodrow-wilson/?utm_term=.40caacb57e48) It’s not just Confederate statues in the cross hairs of the radical left. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/114 "2017-08-15T19:44:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Washington was treasonous from the point of view of the British. He owned slaves as well. I heard a state was named after him, a street or two, maybe some counties, a city, he’s carved into a mountain, is on the quarter, and the dollar bill. Victory erases all sins I suppose. [Josh Marshall responded](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/some-thoughts-on-public-memory) to this line of thought yesterday as follows: > [@](#): > > Jefferson’s place in the national pantheon has come in for increasing criticism. In his case, we have a mixed ledger. He is the author of the Declaration of Independence, the prime driver of the Northwest Ordinance, a significant anti-slavery document, Secretary of State, President. He was also a lifelong slaveholder with all that entailed. With Jefferson you have numerous acts which are high points in our national story joined with an integral involvement with our greatest national shame. This will be a long public discussion. > > What is Robert E. Lee known for? This is what I mean by the margins of the debate. Lee is known for one thing: being the key military leader in a violent rebellion against the United States and leading that rebellion to protect slavery. That’s it. Absent his decision to participate in the rebellion he’d be all but unknown to history. Washington, of course, is in a pretty similar place to Jefferson. A mix of great and honorable accomplishments, and, in Marshall’s words, “an integral involvement with our greatest national shame.” But with Lee, it’s all bad. My thought: save a handful of Confederate statues for museums (a few dozen would likely suffice). Auction the rest off (conditioned on removal within a reasonably short time), and demolish any Confederate statues that aren’t bought. I’m perfectly OK with private ownership of Confederate statues. That’s freedom of speech, choosing what you as a private citizen want to honor on your own property, with your own money. But statues on public land are speech by and on behalf of the general public. I’m sure that some of the more retrograde parts of the country will choose to continue to honor those who are notable largely for having fought to preserve the right of white people to buy, sell, work, and fuck Negroes as property. But I’m confident that most of us will choose to cease giving honor to such people. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/115 "2017-08-15T19:49:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because the people of the state may actually like having them? Of course they will fuss back when a fuss is made over the statues. Well, they _may,_ sure. And community after community _may_ instead reach the opposite conclusion. So are we, then, to agree with a mere shrug that the locals should be the arbiters of whether to fuss over a given statue’s location? ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/116 "2017-08-15T19:50:47Z")
Melt them down and make commemorative pennies out of them. This is the only solution that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/117 "2017-08-15T19:55:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, they _may,_ sure. And community after community _may_ instead reach the opposite conclusion. So are we, then, to agree with a mere shrug that the locals should be the arbiters of whether to fuss over a given statue’s location? If it’s state property then the state decides. If it’s county property the county decides. If it’s city property the city decides. If it’s your property you decide. I don’t see the trouble with that concept. isn’t self rule fun? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/118 "2017-08-15T19:55:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And furthermore, you will never please the radicals who want remove anything associated with something not congruent with their interpretation of 21st century morality. President Wilson was a deplorable and had to go. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/04/27/princeton-to-remove-overly-celebratory-mural-of-woodrow-wilson/?utm\_term=.40caacb57e48](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/04/27/princeton-to-remove-overly-celebratory-mural-of-woodrow-wilson/?utm_term=.40caacb57e48) > > It’s not just Confederate statues in the cross hairs of the radical left. I think that’s a self-correcting problem, though. See, back in the day, folks venerated Lincoln, even when they were thinking he was a guy who held the Union together against challenges posed by Lee and Davis and Jackson and other CSA types who some said deserved statues despite being on the wrong side – right? So fast forward to a point where people are rethinking Lincoln: maybe he’s got some flaws that only now make some people a little uncomfortable with celebrating him. But that’s where the magic comes in: to the extent that Lee and Davis and Jackson and so on now look _even worse,_ figure Lincoln rises in esteem proportionately! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/119 "2017-08-15T20:00:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think that’s a self-correcting problem, though. See, back in the day, folks venerated Lincoln, even when they were thinking he was a guy who held the Union together against challenges posed by Lee and Davis and Jackson and other CSA types who some said deserved statues despite being on the wrong side – right? > > So fast forward to a point where people are rethinking Lincoln: maybe he’s got some flaws that only now make some people a little uncomfortable with celebrating him. But that’s where the magic comes in: to the extent that Lee and Davis and Jackson and so on now look _even worse,_ figure Lincoln rises in esteem proportionately! No. It doesn’t work that way. When round 1 of historical purging is complete it won’t be around to compare to the targets of round 2. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/120 "2017-08-15T20:09:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t know much about Henry VIII or Charles Stuart statues, Henry dissolved the monasteries; Charles provoked the Civil War. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=7)