# What should we do with confederate monuments and statues? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694 "2017-08-15T01:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/141 "2017-08-15T23:40:06Z")
Isn’t Stone Mountain going to be a little tough to move into a museum? ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/142 "2017-08-15T23:40:26Z")
How about, just leave them sit, everyone get unbutthurt over them, and dont waste time energy or money over it? Its monuments, last i checked they aren’t alive and can not do anything. They mean only what you allow them to. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/143 "2017-08-15T23:42:15Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > How about, just leave them sit, everyone get unbutthurt over them, and dont waste time energy or money over it? > > Its monuments, last i checked they aren’t alive and can not do anything. > > They mean only what you allow them to. Or not, maybe? Was it okay for the Germans to get rid of Nazi monuments and memorials? If so, isn’t it okay for us to get rid of monuments and memorials that were put up in support of white supremacy? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/144 "2017-08-15T23:43:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Isn’t Stone Mountain going to be a little tough to move into a museum? I’m sure it would be. Sometimes tough things are worth doing. If it turns out this would break the bank, then maybe it’s not worth the cost, but maybe it wouldn’t be so costly as we might worry. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/145 "2017-08-15T23:43:52Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > How about, just leave them sit, everyone get unbutthurt over them, and dont waste time energy or money over it? > > Its monuments, last i checked they aren’t alive and can not do anything. > > They mean only what you allow them to. I think you have a really twisted perspective on this. I mean, dynamite’s pretty cheap! How could anyone in their right mind overlook this opportunity to partake in some entertaining explosions? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/146 "2017-08-15T23:55:47Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > How about, just leave them sit, everyone get unbutthurt over them, and dont waste time energy or money over it? If the locals want to put the time and energy and money into it, then (a) _they_ want to put the time and energy and money into it; and (b) from the sound of it, I guess _you_ wouldn’t waste any time or energy or money trying to stop them, right? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/147 "2017-08-16T00:00:17Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Isn’t Stone Mountain going to be a little tough to move into a museum? You have a point. So that one just gets defaced. More carving to put spaceman suits, party hats and American flags on the subjects. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/148 "2017-08-16T00:13:25Z")
[Robert E. Lee opposed Confederate monuments.](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/) > [@](#): > > In his writings, Lee cited multiple reasons for opposing such monuments, questioning the cost of a potential Stonewall Jackson monument, for example. But underlying it all was one rationale: That the war had ended, and the South needed to move on and avoid more upheaval. > > “As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated,” Lee wrote of an 1866 proposal, “my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; [and] of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour.” > > The retired Confederate leader, a West Point graduate, was influenced by his knowledge of history. > > “Lee believed countries that erased visible signs of civil war recovered from conflicts quicker,” Horn said. “He was worried that by keeping these symbols alive, it would keep the divisions alive.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/149 "2017-08-16T00:32:59Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Robert E. Lee was unusually bad as a slaveowner too. He had a bunch of slaves run away, when he caught them he ordered a constable to whip them. The constable refused to beat the woman slaves so Robert handled that task personally (that’s to say, he had more taste for cruelty than a standard Virginia police officer under slavery). > > [Arlington, Bobby Lee, and the 'Peculiar Institution' - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/08/arlington-bobby-lee-and-the-peculiar-institution/61428/) My personal view is that these statutes and such should be taken down, put in museums or sold to private collectors to do with as they wish (on private property). The war fought by The South was not a good war-- its goals were not good goals. We should remember such things, but we should not celebrate them. Having said that, our side should be careful about throwing around [assertions of dubious validity.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee#The_Norris_case) Lee owned slaves, and that was a bad, bad thing. It was a terrible thing. But let’s stick to the proven facts. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/150 "2017-08-16T00:40:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Having said that, our side should be careful about throwing around [assertions of dubious validity.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee#The_Norris_case) Lee owned slaves, and that was a bad, bad thing. It was a terrible thing. But let’s stick to the proven facts. Fair enough. From reading the multiple accounts, the account of one of the men who was captured and returned to enslavement seems likeliest: Lee didn’t whip anyone himself, he just paid a constable to subject his captives to the extreme torture of the lash, when the overseer of the slaves refused to do it. After the captives, men and women, had been tortured in this manner, Lee “ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done.” That is, he salted the wounds. So yeah, I agree: let’s be very precise in the ways in which he was a villain. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/151 "2017-08-16T00:46:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, good, that’s progress. So you agree that the laws against doing that should be repealed? Each level of government needs to make that decision for their property. A locality can’t override federal law. But on city property do as you wish. The Army isn’t going to change based on local outrage. [U.S. Army refuses to take Confederate general names off Fort Hamilton streets – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-army-won-confederate-names-fort-hamilton-streets-article-1.3391292) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/152 "2017-08-16T00:48:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m sure it would be. Sometimes tough things are worth doing. If it turns out this would break the bank, then maybe it’s not worth the cost, but maybe it wouldn’t be so costly as we might worry. My. Rushmore has two slave owners on it. Let’s dynamite that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/153 "2017-08-16T00:51:03Z")
Spare us the clever analogies of conservatives. **octopus** , what little rigor that analogy has, has repeatedly been rebutted in this very thread. Do you genuinely still think it’s funny, or persuasive, or clever, or whatever you think it is? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/154 "2017-08-16T00:51:03Z")
Hey. You. Celebrating men despite their slave-owning is different from celebrating them because they fought for slavery. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/155 "2017-08-16T00:51:13Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > My. Rushmore has two slave owners on it. Let’s dynamite that as well. Make the argument and I’ll consider it. The Germans took down Nazi memorials – was that wrong? They didn’t take down other historical memorials at the same time. Taking down some memorials has always been done – it’s not a new thing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/156 "2017-08-16T00:52:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Each level of government needs to make that decision for their property. A locality can’t override federal law. But on city property do as you wish. > > The Army isn’t going to change based on local outrage. [U.S. Army refuses to take Confederate general names off Fort Hamilton streets – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-army-won-confederate-names-fort-hamilton-streets-article-1.3391292) Those are not monuments or statues, but roads. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/157 "2017-08-16T01:06:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > My. Rushmore has two slave owners on it. Let’s dynamite that as well. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Hey. You. Celebrating men despite their slave-owning is different from celebrating them because they fought for slavery. Well said **Richard Parker**. Incidentally I saw that silly argument before coming from places like NEWSMAX and even old paleo fascist and racist Pat Buchanan made that silly argument; so, not even an original slippery slope fallacy, sad! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/158 "2017-08-16T01:12:01Z")
[This is a great article by the guy who wrote my sig](http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article31123988.html). > [@Timothy Tyson](#): > > White North Carolinians erected the vast majority of our Confederate monuments – 82 out of 98 – after 1898, decades after the Civil War ended. More importantly, they built the monuments after the white supremacy campaigns had seized power by force and taken the vote from black North Carolinians. The monuments reflected that moment of white supremacist ascendency as much as they did the Confederate legacy. > > Take the Confederate monument on the campus of UNC-Chapel Hill, better known as “Silent Sam.” The speaker at its dedication in 1913, industrialist Julian S. Carr, bragged that he had “horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because … she had publicly insulted … a Southern lady.” Carr’s speech heralded the “Anglo-Saxon race in the South” reunited with white supremacy as the glue. > … > Today, there are about 100 Confederate monuments in North Carolina, five on the Capitol grounds in Raleigh. There are no monuments to the slaves that built our state. There are none for the interracial Reconstruction government of the 1860s, which gave us the North Carolina Constitution we still try to live under and built our first system of free, tax-supported public schools. > > Our statehouse displays no statues to celebrate the interracial Fusion movement of the 1890s, which could have led the way into a different kind of South. We have no monuments on our courthouse lawns to the interracial civil rights movement that helped to pass the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which made black Southerners full citizens for the first time. There are no monuments at the Capitol to Abraham Galloway, Charlotte Hawkins Brown, Ella Baker or Julius Chambers. > > Only one side of our racial history – the Confederates and the white supremacy movement – gets public monuments in North Carolina. And yet the history that we leave out of our public square speaks lessons far more profound than the message of the Confederacy. > … > My great-great-grandfather, a Unionist drafted by the Confederates, hid in an underground passage by the Neuse River at Maple Cypress. Now the Sons of Confederate Veterans keeps putting a Rebel marker on his grave. In life, the Confederates could not catch him, but in death their descendants have inducted him into their Lost Cause. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/159 "2017-08-16T01:27:45Z")
They must all be racist, Nazi apologists. [Predominantly Black Dallas Group Forms To Protect Confederate Monuments](http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/08/14/dallas-group-forms-to-protect-confederate-monuments/) \*"Former city council member Sandra Crenshaw thinks removing the statues won’t help. “I’m not intimidated by Robert E. Lee’s statue. I’m not intimidated by it. It doesn’t scare me,” said Crenshaw. “We don’t want America to think that all African Americans are supportive of this.” Crenshaw, along with some Buffalo Solider historians and Sons of Confederate Veterans are coming together to help protect the Confederate markers from toppling over in Dallas. They feel the monuments, like the Freedman’s Cemetery, tell an important story and help heal racial wounds. “Some people think that by taking a statue down, that’s going to erase racism,” said Crenshaw. “Misguided.”"\* ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/160 "2017-08-16T01:41:55Z")
If I had my way I’d melt down every statue praising the Confederacy and melt them down to turn them into crosses. I’d then place them in every slave-labor camp and wherever Southerners lynched a black person. We probably won’t have enough metal. But it’s a start. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694.md?page=9)