# What should we expect (demand?) from Palestinians if Gaza pullout "succeeds"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867 "2005-08-13T15:37:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/41 "2005-08-17T21:34:49Z")
I think that in addition to the international community investing large amounts of money in Gaza, large amounts of troops–UN, European, or Arab\*–should be sent to bolster Abbas’ and the PA’s efforts to establish control and suppress terrorism. \*The inclusion of Arab troops is bound to make the Gazans feel better, and while I don’t put it past some Arab soldiers to want to aid Hamas in attacks on Israel, I’d like to think that some of the Arab states have troops that are prefessional and disciplined enough to be trustworthy in serving as UN peacekeepers. And I think that the time has passed where there is a significant threat of a conventional attack on Israel by Arab states. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/42 "2005-08-17T21:46:01Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > So damned if they do, damned if they don’t, huh? > > What, exactly could Israel do that would make you guys finally put some moral accountability on the Palestinians instead of focusing on Israel? “You guys”? Who, exactly, is that? Are you being ganged up on again? Or do you have a specific group to which you are referring? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/43 "2005-08-17T21:50:11Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > That law regards the status of Palestinians who marry Israeli citizens by saying that the Palestinian spouse needs to apply for governmental permission to live in Israel. It doesn’t do what you say it does. In other words, an Arab Israeli who marries a spouse of his or her choice is treated differently from an Israeli Jew who marries a spouse of his or her choice. That’s my point. I really don’t understand where you’re coming from here. Are you seriously denying that Israel discriminates against its Arab citizens? B’Tselem, Amnesty, even the U.S. State Department – not to mention a million Arab Israelis – all say you’re wrong. Look, I entered into this thread with what seemed to me like a reasonable reponse to the OP – namely, that Israel should treat the Occupied Territories with equity and justice, and not pursue policies of discrimination and collective punishment. I argued for equal treatment for the Palestinians. I would have thought that non-discrimination and equality would unassailable propositions, embraced by everyone. And yet they seem to have no traction here at all. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/44 "2005-08-17T21:56:16Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > In other words, an Arab Israeli who marries a spouse of his or her choice is treated differently from an Israeli Jew who marries a spouse of his or her choice. That’s my point. No, an Arab Israeli who marries a Palestinian is treated the same as an Israeli Jew who marries a Palestinian. The law affects the Palestinian’s status, not the Israeli’s status. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/45 "2005-08-17T22:42:05Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > Look, I entered into this thread with what seemed to me like a reasonable reponse to the OP – namely, that Israel should treat the Occupied Territories with equity and justice, and not pursue policies of discrimination and collective punishment. I argued for equal treatment for the Palestinians. I would have thought that non-discrimination and equality would unassailable propositions, embraced by everyone. And yet they seem to have no traction here at all. > > Why is that? Look, suppose Britain and India had a war and Britain ended up occupying India. Do you honestly believe that the Indians would be agitating for British citizenship, even after 40 years of British occupation? Or would they be agitating for Indian independence? The Israelis don’t want to annex Gaza or the West Bank if that means making the Palestinians full citizens, because that would mean that Israel would no longer be a majority Jewish state. The Palestinians don’t want Israel to annex Gaza or the West bank even if it meant they would become full citizens of Israel, because they want a Palestinian state and want to be citizens of that state. If Israel attempted to do what you describe it would likely mean another regional war, Israel would be attacked by the neighboring Arab states. Probably Israel would win the war. But the first thing that would happen after the shooting stopped would be a secession movement by the Palestinian areas of Gaza and the West Bank. Just like Czechoslovakia broke apart into Czech Republic and Slovakia very soon after Czechoslovakia freed itself from Soviet domination and established a free government. A one-state solution is impossible, because both sides hate and fear each other. Why is that so hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/46 "2005-08-17T23:36:39Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > A one-state solution is impossible, because both sides hate and fear each other. Why is that so hard to understand? And didn’t blacks and whites hate and fear each other in segregation days? Didn’t blacks and whites hate and fear each other in apartheid South Africa? The hate and fear are a product of discrimination. They don’t go away overnight, but they can be overcome. This whole discussion of one state, two state is a sideshow here. My point is that the Israelis need to come up with something – anything – that is equitable and non-discriminatory. Or do you not agree? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/47 "2005-08-17T23:56:20Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > This whole discussion of one state, two state is a sideshow here. My point is that the Israelis need to come up with something – anything – that is equitable and non-discriminatory. Or do you not agree? How about paying the Palestinians to leave? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/48 "2005-08-18T02:21:01Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > Wow, I don’t know how many times I have to say this. None of these leaders – Rabin, Barak, Begin, Sharon – offered the Palestinians want they want, and what would end the conflict: namely, equality, and equal citizenship. Again, if you were Palestinian, would you want anything less? > > . At Camp David, Isreal conceded everything _but_ control over Jerusalem. Still no go. The Palestinians don’t really want those things- they have stated they want the end of Isreal as a nation- it’s even in their sort of Constitution. They also want the death of all Jews, and the end of the USA. ---
**Author:** ![reckful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@reckful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reckful)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/49 "2005-08-18T03:57:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > At Camp David, Isreal conceded everything _but_ control over Jerusalem. Still no go. > > The Palestinians don’t really want those things- they have stated they want the end of Isreal as a nation- it’s even in their sort of Constitution. They also want the death of all Jews, and the end of the USA. They ask for all that, but not East Jerusalem? I’m confused. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/50 "2005-08-18T04:15:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > At Camp David, Isreal conceded everything _but_ control over Jerusalem. Still no go. > > The Palestinians don’t really want those things- they have stated they want the end of Isreal as a nation- it’s even in their sort of Constitution. They also want the death of all Jews, and the end of the USA. They want the death of all Jews and the end of the USA? That’s in their Constitution? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/51 "2005-08-18T15:32:02Z")
Anyone want to bet me that these moves by Israel (and the Palestinians’ powerless president) won’t change a damned thing? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/52 "2005-08-18T15:43:35Z")
You’re probably right but it is a start. It also sets a precedent for Israel pulling out of “occupied” areas. It might lead to some sort of deal in the West Bank and perhaps a lessening of tensions. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/53 "2005-08-18T16:35:08Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > You’re probably right but it is a start. It also sets a precedent for Israel pulling out of “occupied” areas. It might lead to some sort of deal in the West Bank and perhaps a lessening of tensions. I dunno, I think it’s more likely to lead to an Israeli revolution if they go ahead and keep backing out of territories…all the while continuing the cycle of retributive violence. But, I think the current government is just acquiring leverage by being able to say, “Look, we backed off and you guys are still bombing/gassing/rocketing, so that’s it. Now we’re going to get really nasty.” We’ll see. -Joe -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/54 "2005-08-18T16:43:30Z")
You may very well be right but what was the alternative? The status quo wasn’t exactly rosy so somone needed to do something! The US should now weigh in and put pressure on both sides to hammer out a deal. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867/55 "2005-08-18T22:14:43Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > You may very well be right but what was the alternative? The status quo wasn’t exactly rosy so somone needed to do something! What? The status quo was a few dozen sacrificed a month. I’ll bet it never gets any better than that. Want an alternative? Too bad. There isn’t one. The only way it’ll end is when most of the alleged “Holy Land” is a glowing glass crater. That will, of course, lead to a new round of Side X killing Side Y… I really don’t think anything better than a few dozen people being fed into the grinder monthly will be found. > [@Lochdale](#): > > The US should now weigh in and put pressure on both sides to hammer out a deal. Because either side really gives a shit what the USA thinks? There was a time when the POTUS getting involved actually **MEANT** something. Now it’s something a President does because he doesn’t have a good golf game (or a brush clearing photo op!) lined up for that week. Would you perhaps like “Roadmap Part II”? Because that first one really accomplished a lot. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-expect-demand-from-palestinians-if-gaza-pullout-succeeds/316867.md?page=2)