# What sort of empire is the Klingon Empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 29, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952 "2015-09-29T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/41 "2015-09-30T16:29:09Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > I dunno. The ONE time we saw what the Klingons do to subject planets was on Organia, where John Colicos set himself up as Imperial Governor, and it was made pretty clear that from now on, a percentage of Organian assets and production were now Imperial property… and that production had durn well better continue, and even escalate, if the Organians knew what was good for them. I sometimes like thinking of TOS (and much of TNG) as productions of the Federation Ministry of Truth. Let nothing, ever, cast any poor reflection on the Federation, or do anything that will make the citizens less willing to support their noble Starfleet on their heavily-armed mission of Peace and Brotherhood. It explains the always strong! bold! Kirk and cloyingly perfect Picard and over-the-top emphasis on including diversity (look, there’s no need to argue about who conquered who, the point is we’re all in this together now against the Borg, and contributions can be made even by races, um, recently brought into the loving embrace of the Federation). It particularly solves the Klingon problem – in TOS they’re brutal, evil, enemies with body odor and villainous laughs, who are willing to lie, cheat and steal to get their way. By TNG, it stops short of saying that we’ve always been at peace with Eastasia, I mean, Klingon, but they are now noble, warriors who have moved beyond our previous (unpleasant, but probably necessary) misunderstandings and conflict, and in particular have a warrior! culture of honesty and trustworthiness that means all the Federation men and women lost in Klingon wars were killed in such respectful, honorable ways, that their families should be grateful for being allowed to be a part of that glory. Now that there are other enemies we must band together to fight, anyway. The Organia episode was of course a sloppily-produced piece of propaganda where despite trying to portray Kirk as a dedicated Freedom Fighter (just like the contras!) his willingness to sacrifice Organian lives, and the parallels between the Klingon Empire and the Federation, got a little obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/42 "2015-09-30T17:39:33Z")
Well, that brings us back to Saint Roddenberry and how the Federation was picture perfect, and no one ever solved problems by violence, and there was never any conflict, blah blah blah… …which makes me consider why Captain Kirk was such a good captain. For one thing, he wasn’t afraid to get into a scuffle occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/43 "2015-09-30T18:15:46Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > I missed the Klingon Chef. So many missed opportunities… Yeah, what is “Bork, Bork, Bork” in Klingonese anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/44 "2015-09-30T18:19:19Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > On the other hand, in the _Star Trek_ universe, people from different planets can interbreed. Not just Vulcans and Romulans, either (which [canonically does actually make some sense](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Romulan_history)); but [very famously Terrans and Vulcans](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Spock), and [Terrans and Klingons](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/B%27Elanna_Torres), [Cardassians and Bajorans](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Tora_Ziyal), [Klingons and Romulans](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Birthright,_Part_II_(episode))–basically, everyone in the galaxy this side of the [Horta](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Horta?file=Horta.jpg) were apparently interfertile. I’ve always assumed (to be charitable) that there was quite a bit of genetic engineering involved. Sarek could afford it - by TNG times you could probably get an interbreeding kit at your local drugstore. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/45 "2015-09-30T18:25:20Z")
I figure the Empire consists of three classes of worlds, colonies inhabited by Klingons, conquered planets, and planets ceded to them by the Organians pursuant to the treaty. Some of the first were undoubtedly obtained by elimination of indigenous species. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/46 "2015-09-30T18:55:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Yeah, what is “Bork, Bork, Bork” in Klingonese anyway? “Bork, bork, bork,” IS Klingonese. It just doesn’t mean what the Swedish Chef thinks it means. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/47 "2015-09-30T19:32:06Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > You clearly haven’t watched _Star Trek: Enterprise_. Do yourself a favor and don’t. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/48 "2015-09-30T19:47:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve always assumed (to be charitable) that there was quite a bit of genetic engineering involved. Sarek could afford it - by TNG times you could probably get an interbreeding kit at your local drugstore. Very good! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/49 "2015-09-30T19:48:41Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > “Bork, bork, bork,” IS Klingonese. > > It just doesn’t mean what the Swedish Chef thinks it means. Swedish sounds better in the original Klingon. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/50 "2015-09-30T19:51:00Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Klingon history posits a long period during which the Empire actually consisted of two highly distinct subcultures in a state of subtle conflict. The noble/warrior caste (B faction), distinguished by their greater size and bony armor, were superficially dominant, heirs to a period when they subjugated the smaller subspecies (the S faction). The problem is that Kang and Koloth are in TOS with smooth foreheads, and in the DS9 episode “Blood Oath”, they have ridges. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/51 "2015-09-30T19:58:42Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The problem is that Kang and Koloth are in TOS with smooth foreheads, and in the DS9 episode “Blood Oath”, they have ridges. I missed that ep – how would any adult Klingon from TOS still be alive at the time of DS9? Or was it a flashback or something? ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/52 "2015-09-30T20:29:42Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The problem is that Kang and Koloth are in TOS with smooth foreheads, and in the DS9 episode “Blood Oath”, they have ridges. Prior to the purges, the S faction dominated the spaceborne forces, both military and diplomatic, but Kang and Koloth both had ambitions in space service. In order to present a consistent front to outsiders, they underwent procedures to reduce their B features (with Koloth’s modifications being the more extreme). This proved advantageous to their advancement, leading them to command positions. The effects of the procedures are temporary; Bs armored bone structure continues to develop into old age\* and will reassert itself if not suppressed by regular treatments. After the tribble incident, they repudiated their former associates and discontinued the suppression treatments. Before the purges were over, much of their natural appearance had been restored. 😃 \*This is a function of their evolution as nomadic hunters. Younger hunters were faster and less armored. As they aged, they became more like tanks–less mobile, but tougher, and in coordinated hunts, the younger members drove prey toward them. This is also part of the answer to **BrainGlutton** ’s question–Klingons have a longer active lifespan than humans, and fill different roles in their later years. A 150-year-old Klingon may not be as fast as he once was, but he’s a tough SOB. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/53 "2015-09-30T21:06:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I missed that ep – how would any adult Klingon from TOS still be alive at the time of DS9? Or was it a flashback or something? They were super duper old. Apparently Klingons can live pretty long if they don’t bother to die in glorious battle. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/54 "2015-09-30T21:29:49Z")
Well, Dr. McCoy was alive during the time frame of ST:NG. Albeit absolutely ancient. He, too, avoided dying gloriously in battle. …and don’t get me started on the damn foreheads. The fans have been wanking furiously over that ever since Kahless the Unforgettable popped up again, after umpteen centuries and jumpstarting Klingon culture and blah blah blah and having ridges, so how come Kang, Kor, and Koloth didn’t have 'em during TOS but did on DS9? I always liked the nonexplanation: during the episode “Trials And Tribble-ations,” our heroes ask Worf why Klingons in the past don’t have ridges and look like humans with big eyebrows. An irritated Worf simply remarks, “We do not discuss it with outsiders.” It was great. It was deadpan humor. And any ape knows why: because sixties effects makeups were in the stone age, even if you COULD afford them. And then, _Enterprise_ had to screw it all up by explaining it was a genetic plague that messed up Klingons and made their ridges disappear, and until they found a cure, they just looked like Space Mongols, is all. Bleh. Some people can’t leave well enough alone. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/55 "2015-09-30T23:40:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I missed that ep – how would any adult Klingon from TOS still be alive at the time of DS9? Or was it a flashback or something? They (and Kor) were, I admit, clearly an exercise in stunt casting, bringing back actors John Colicos (Kor), Michael Ansara (Kang) and William Campbell (Koloth). Kang and Koloth are killed in the episode, while Kor returns for two more episodes, starts to show signs of senility (the implied and shameful fate of any warrior who lets himself die of - ew - _old age_, in the last before sacrificing himself in battle ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/56 "2015-09-30T23:44:07Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > Well, Dr. McCoy was alive during the time frame of ST:NG. Albeit absolutely ancient. He, too, avoided dying gloriously in battle. > > …and don’t get me started on the damn foreheads. The fans have been wanking furiously over that ever since Kahless the Unforgettable popped up again, after umpteen centuries and jumpstarting Klingon culture and blah blah blah and having ridges, so how come Kang, Kor, and Koloth didn’t have 'em during TOS but did on DS9? > > I always liked the nonexplanation: during the episode “Trials And Tribble-ations,” our heroes ask Worf why Klingons in the past don’t have ridges and look like humans with big eyebrows. An irritated Worf simply remarks, “We do not discuss it with outsiders.” > > It was great. It was deadpan humor. And any ape knows why: because sixties effects makeups were in the stone age, even if you COULD afford them. > > And then, _Enterprise_ had to screw it all up by explaining it was a genetic plague that messed up Klingons and made their ridges disappear, and until they found a cure, they just looked like Space Mongols, is all. > > Bleh. Some people can’t leave well enough alone. I didn’t like that they acknowledged it at all in DS9. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/57 "2015-09-30T23:53:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I didn’t like that they acknowledged it at all in DS9. It was a joke. In a comedy episode. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/58 "2015-10-01T00:23:36Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > …and don’t get me started on the damn foreheads. The fans have been wanking furiously over that ever since Kahless the Unforgettable popped up again, after umpteen centuries and jumpstarting Klingon culture and blah blah blah and having ridges, so how come Kang, Kor, and Koloth didn’t have 'em during TOS but did on DS9? > > I always liked the nonexplanation: during the episode “Trials And Tribble-ations,” our heroes ask Worf why Klingons in the past don’t have ridges and look like humans with big eyebrows. An irritated Worf simply remarks, “We do not discuss it with outsiders.” > > It was great. It was deadpan humor. And any ape knows why: because sixties effects makeups were in the stone age, even if you COULD afford them. Yes, it was. It was an excellent way to address it in canon, once they decided to address it at all. (And really, given the juxtaposition, they pretty much had to either give an explanation or lampshade it. They wisely chose the lampshade.) > [@](#): > > And then, _Enterprise_ had to screw it all up by explaining it was a genetic plague that messed up Klingons and made their ridges disappear, and until they found a cure, they just looked like Space Mongols, is all. > > Bleh. Some people can’t leave well enough alone. Here’s the thing: extrapolating details of a setting from shown information is an entertainment form unto itself. In its pure form, the point is not whether the extrapolation is right or wrong, it’s to enjoy the process as an intellectual exercise. For ongoing works, it also provides chances to try to anticipate the next story reveal, not unlike a reader trying to figure out the solution to a mystery before reaching the end. The _DS9_ “answer” was good, and it did not foreclose opportunities for speculation, which was a bonus. _Enterprise_, on the other hand, went into enough detail to screw up the extrapolation game, without actually providing a really entertaining answer in itself. It was clumsy and unnecessary, and it spoiled part of the fun. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/59 "2015-10-01T00:28:55Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > It was a joke. In a comedy episode. Which inevitably set off the continuity vermin. It wasn’t a joke that they were forced to tell. They chose to. And I would have preferred that the canon never have acknowledged what should have remained simply an artifact of practical budget and technology matters. Hell, I would have preferred that they use CGI to change what the Klingons looked like just to avoid the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/60 "2015-10-01T00:32:50Z")
OK, I take your point. But I would say, people who _didn’t get the joke_ created problems, eventually including the Enterprise episodes mentioned. The problem here is not actually with the joke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952.md?page=4)