# What sort of empire is the Klingon Empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 29, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952 "2015-09-29T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/61 "2015-10-01T02:00:19Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The problem is that Kang and Koloth are in TOS with smooth foreheads, and in the DS9 episode “Blood Oath”, they have ridges. The polygon and texture-map budgets were too low in the original holodeck sims to support full details. Have to maintain maximum compatibility with all the colonies, you know. Eventually the next-gen holodecks were widespread enough that they could update the character models. Wait till you see the latest sims with full “pore” support! ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/62 "2015-10-01T02:29:01Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > On the other hand, in the _Star Trek_ universe, people from different planets can interbreed. Not just Vulcans and Romulans, either (which [canonically does actually make some sense](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Romulan_history)); but [very famously Terrans and Vulcans](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Spock), and [Terrans and Klingons](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/B%27Elanna_Torres), [Cardassians and Bajorans](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Tora_Ziyal), [Klingons and Romulans](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Birthright,_Part_II_(episode))–basically, everyone in the galaxy this side of the [Horta](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Horta?file=Horta.jpg) were apparently interfertile. Remember [the TNG episode](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chase_%28Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation%29)that stated that many humanoid races were seeded by an ancestor race, and thus have compatible DNA. The ancestor race eventually evolved to become the Founders of the Dominion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/63 "2015-10-01T02:34:11Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > The ancestor race eventually evolved to become the Founders of the Dominion. When was that established? The ancient gene-seeder and the most-often-seen Founder were played by the same actress, but I’m not aware of any established in-universe connection. Heck, by that standard, every species in the galaxy has a Jeffrey Combs phenotype. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/64 "2015-10-01T03:19:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > When was that established? The ancient gene-seeder and the most-often-seen Founder were played by the same actress, but I’m not aware of any established in-universe connection… No, it’s only fanon, not canon. But there’s nothing in canon to contradict it either (although it does seem like the sort of thing the Founders would’ve endless brought up to justify their actions). ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/65 "2015-10-01T03:58:03Z")
The only ‘basis’ for that notion is that Salome Jens played both the (holographic) Ancient Humanoid, and the Female Changeling. So, pretty dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/66 "2015-10-01T04:07:32Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > But there’s nothing in canon to contradict it either… Apart from the fact that the AHs and their progeny are, you know, “solid” humanoids, and the Changelings are liquid beings from a completely different part of the galaxy. Kind of like there’s nothing in canon to contradict the idea that tribbles are the ancestors of whales. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/67 "2015-10-01T11:06:16Z")
It’s established (as of the finishing of the sentence that I am now writing) that Vulcans originated on a planet called Middle Earth, but they weren’t Elves, which would be too obvious - they are descended from Dwarves! Can’t prove me wrong! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/68 "2015-10-01T12:12:25Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Kind of like there’s nothing in canon to contradict the idea that tribbles are the ancestors of whales. Wow! It all makes sense now! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/69 "2015-10-01T13:28:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In NG the Klingons got a [Proud Warrior Race](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProudWarriorRaceGuy) makeover – which is not incompatible with that, but since it was clearly meant to make them more sympathetic, has the nature of their state also been [Heel-Face Turned](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn)? Having your moon explode kind of does that to an empire. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/70 "2015-10-01T13:38:31Z")
Bryan Eckers wrote:“Heck, by that standard, every species in the galaxy has a Jeffrey Combs phenotype.” And a Vaughn Armstrong one as well. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/71 "2015-10-01T16:07:00Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Having your moon explode kind of does that to an empire. Must have missed that ep – when did the Klingon homeworld’s moon explode? ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/72 "2015-10-01T17:28:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Must have missed that ep – when did the Klingon homeworld’s moon explode? Star Trek VI (The Undiscovered Country) Brian ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/73 "2015-10-01T17:35:20Z")
Yup. STVI opens with the explosion of the Klingon moon, the collapse of their economy, and severe damage to their ecosystem. It’s implied that it’s essentially destabilized the Empire to a tremendous degree, and is the main reason they suddenly want peace with the Federation. …and also a handy stand-in/allegory for the Fall of Communism, and the collapse of the Soviet Union. Which, considering the Klingons were intended to be Space Commies all along… ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/74 "2015-10-01T21:15:09Z")
Klingons always seemed to be angry and uncooperative even among themselves. How could they coordinate an empire like that? i always thought that was the least convincing thing on star trek. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/75 "2015-10-01T21:34:39Z")
Hell, give Klingons someone to FIGHT, and they’ll cooperate just fine. But I do remember an old CD ROM game where you play a Klingon, and you are sent to take a station on the bridge of a ship. When you get there, there are no open bridge stations. What do you do? The correct answer: Find someone who’s not doing his job properly, knock the crap out of him, and take over… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/76 "2015-10-01T21:39:27Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Klingons always seemed to be angry and uncooperative even among themselves. How could they coordinate an empire like that? i always thought that was the least convincing thing on star trek. They may have some untermenschen to run stuff for them. Pretty effective when you can execute the Secretary of Agriculture or the Secretary of the Treasury. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/77 "2015-10-01T22:27:18Z")
In the Star Fleet Battles tabletop game, Klingon ships had “security stations” onboard their ships. In that game, the majority of the ships crews were conscripted lesser species (from worlds conquered by the Empire) performing the non-glorious tasks of keeping the ship working. The Klingons themselves were all officers (in command roles). ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/78 "2015-10-01T22:32:32Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > In the Star Fleet Battles tabletop game, Klingon ships had “security stations” onboard their ships. In that game, the majority of the ships crews were conscripted lesser species (from worlds conquered by the Empire) performing the non-glorious tasks of keeping the ship working. The Klingons themselves were all officers (in command roles). Mm-hm. And one of the Klingons’ perennial problems was that if you lost your security stations, the _untermenschen_ would rebel, and possibly cripple the ship… which is totally a thing you don’t want happening in the middle of a ship battle. It’s worth noting that the Star Fleet Battles universe has kind of spun off into its own non-canon thing, now. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/79 "2015-10-01T23:36:43Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > if you lost your security stations, the _untermenschen_ would rebel, and possibly cripple the ship… which is totally a thing you don’t want happening in the middle of a ship battle. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/80 "2015-10-02T01:12:19Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Klingons always seemed to be angry and uncooperative even among themselves. How could they coordinate an empire like that? i always thought that was the least convincing thing on star trek. That is a circumstance which many empires in history somehow managed to survive for centuries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952.md?page=5)