# What sort of empire is the Klingon Empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 29, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952 "2015-09-29T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/81 "2015-10-02T01:55:17Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > It’s worth noting that the Star Fleet Battles universe has kind of spun off into its own non-canon thing, now. Pretty sure I’ve mentioned this on previous threads, but the old FASA Star Trek Role Playing game had the bone-in Klingons as Imperial Klingons, and the boneless Klingons were a result of genetic engineering–the Klingons had a tactic when they ran into other starfaring races to engineer half-Klingon, half-the other race, to help with infiltration, helping to “think like the enemy,” etc. And since they didn’t understand the concept of “Federation” initially and just saw it as a “Human Empire,” they made human fusions. I think somewhere in the supplements covering the movies, they mentioned that the human fusions started to become politically powerful enough that they became a serious threat to the Imperial Klingons, and so they were eventually suppressed. I don’t know that the timelines really can support genetic engineering and breeding on that kind of scale, but it would put a sinister turn on Worf’s statement–they don’t speak of it, because it would be the creation and then genocide of an entire sub-race. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/82 "2015-10-02T07:26:50Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > And then, _Enterprise_ had to screw it all up by explaining it was a genetic plague that messed up Klingons and made their ridges disappear, and until they found a cure, they just looked like Space Mongols, is all. > > Bleh. Some people can’t leave well enough alone. The fourth season of \*Enterprise \*is unreliable, given that it canonically is a fictionalization Will Riker was reading on his Kindle. And I say that as an _Enterprise_ fan. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/83 "2015-10-02T07:30:39Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > Hell, give Klingons someone to FIGHT, and they’ll cooperate just fine. But I do remember an old CD ROM game where you play a Klingon, and you are sent to take a station on the bridge of a ship. > > When you get there, there are no open bridge stations. What do you do? > > The correct answer: Find someone who’s not doing his job properly, knock the crap out of him, and take over… If it was FMV (full motion video), it sounds like the creatively named _Star Trek: Klingon_. I got it from an abandonware site a while back, but haven’t ever played it beyond the beginning. (It came with Star Trek: Borg, a game my college roommate gave me, but I had scratched the disks.) It also came with an encyclopedia meant to teach you about Klingon culture, as well as give you some basic Klingon language lessons. All on Windows 3.1. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/84 "2015-10-02T07:31:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I didn’t like that they acknowledged it at all in DS9. Yeah, I get that they lampshaded it for a joke, but that’s really where the trouble began, because certain fans took that literally. All TV portrayals of rubber-forehead aliens are makeup jobs, and serve a storytelling function; they are not actual literal portrayals of historical events. They entirely recast a character on DS9, too; do fans have an “explanation” for that? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/85 "2015-10-02T07:44:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is a circumstance which many empires in history somehow managed to survive for centuries. Yeah… It’s called “natural selection.” The meanest and most ruthless members rise to the top, while the weak and meek are either enslaved or transformed into willing drones only too happy to further their leaders’ plans. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/86 "2015-10-02T07:49:27Z")
Oh, yeah, **dzeiger** , the backstory you mention in post #81 does ring a bell. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/87 "2015-10-02T17:40:39Z")
“Where does the one go when he can no longer be a Klingon?” -----------------------------------_The Final Reflection_, John M. Ford. One of the few \*Star Trek \*novels I have bothered to keep around over the years. Still well worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/88 "2015-10-02T18:10:30Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > “Where does the one go when he can no longer be a Klingon?” New Jersey. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/89 "2015-10-02T18:11:03Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > “Where does the one go when he can no longer be a Klingon?” > > -----------------------------------_The Final Reflection_, John M. Ford. One of the few \*Star Trek \*novels I have bothered to keep around over the years. Still well worth reading. Argentina? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/90 "2015-10-02T19:29:14Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > “Where does the one go when he can no longer be a Klingon?” > > -----------------------------------_The Final Reflection_, John M. Ford. One of the few \*Star Trek \*novels I have bothered to keep around over the years. Still well worth reading. “Anywhere - the stars are the same everywhere.” “That which is done before the naked stars is remembered.” Yes, well worth reading. For is not revenge the final reflection of mourning? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/91 "2015-10-02T19:44:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, that would work perfectly; the empire gets no subject labor to exploit, but it gets land and resources, unencumbered by any pesky rebellious ethnic minorities. Isn’t that how the Han Empire in China worked … they didn’t colonize, they replaced other populations with Han people over time. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/92 "2015-10-02T21:33:55Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Isn’t that how the Han Empire in China worked … they didn’t colonize, they replaced other populations with Han people over time. I was under the impression it was more of a cultural thing; if you weren’t Chinese, you eventually BECAME Chinese. Or was there more ethnic cleansing involved? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/93 "2015-10-02T23:39:13Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > They entirely recast a character on DS9, too; do fans have an “explanation” for that? Which character? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/94 "2015-10-02T23:47:21Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > I was under the impression it was more of a cultural thing; if you weren’t Chinese, you eventually BECAME Chinese. Or was there more ethnic cleansing involved? Well, reading about it, there is not much about ancient practices of ethnic cleansing, though there is a listing about an ancient Chinese ruler wiping out a minority called the Wu Hu people. Currently there are many accounts of the current Chinese government committing genocide against the people of Tibet and also a minority called the Uygar people. Mass murder, forced resettlement, and breaking up families and relocating the women to distant areas so that they are forced to marry Han Chinese are all cited as methods currently being employed. I would say that the intermarrying thing would be a case of integrating people into the Han Chinese, however, the violence and force of it makes it disagreeable, if not as disagreeable as mass murder and forcible relocations. But there is not enough information from a cursory Google search for me to say it’s the only technique the Han have used historically. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/95 "2015-10-03T01:49:42Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Yeah, I get that they lampshaded it for a joke, but that’s really where the trouble began, because certain fans took that literally. > > All TV portrayals of rubber-forehead aliens are makeup jobs, and serve a storytelling function; they are not actual literal portrayals of historical events. They entirely recast a character on DS9, too; do fans have an “explanation” for that? C’mon, you know fandom has an explanation for _everything_. Mind you, not always any more sensible, but if the show team eventually does cough one up, sometimes the fanon looks pretty good by comparison. Of course, there is no reason the official production team HAS to throw something in to explain stuff that was beside the point. Part of the charm in the earlier years, to me, was that we were left to fill in the blanks whenever some Noodle Incident or another in the characters’ or the universe’s past was mentioned. Or could just move on with the plot at hand and not get hung up on it. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/96 "2015-10-03T04:27:45Z")
What I’m saying is that it doesn’t matter. One actor was unavailable, and they used another. Or they recast and went a different direction. Or they redesigned anything from the uniforms to an entire alien species between seasons, let alone series! It doesn’t matter, because it’s imperfect storytelling, not a documentary. You may as well fanwank about supposed “in-universe” existence of incidental music. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/97 "2015-10-03T04:40:35Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Which character? If you didn’t notice, why would I tell you? So you can spin some insane theory about imposters? Anyway, it’s not a big secret. It was a recurring character with a forehead appliance. [Tora Ziyal.](https://rindastartrekds9.wordpress.com/tag/the-many-faces-of-tora-ziyal/) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/98 "2015-10-03T05:12:27Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Anyway, it’s not a big secret. It was a recurring character with a forehead appliance. [Tora Ziyal.](https://rindastartrekds9.wordpress.com/tag/the-many-faces-of-tora-ziyal/) Obviously it was due to wily Changeling infiltrators! ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/99 "2015-10-03T18:36:01Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > If you didn’t notice, why would I tell you? So you can spin some insane theory about imposters? > > Anyway, it’s not a big secret. It was a recurring character with a forehead appliance. [Tora Ziyal.](https://rindastartrekds9.wordpress.com/tag/the-many-faces-of-tora-ziyal/) Quark’s mother Ishka was played by Andrea Martin in her first appearance and by Cecily Adams thereafter. IIRC this was because Martin couldn’t tolerate the prosthetic makeup. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952/100 "2015-10-04T15:39:46Z")
Oh… I thought we were talking about how Jadzia Dax became Ezri Dax. Then again, when you put shapeshifters into the plot, any damn thing can happen. It’s almost as bad as Time Lord Regeneration… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-empire-is-the-klingon-empire/732952.md?page=4)