# What sort of pope will Pope Francis be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845 "2013-03-13T19:43:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/61 "2013-03-14T09:00:27Z")
Bishop Romero, replacing Friar Torquemada, succeeding Lech Walesa, succeeding Cardinal Lamberto. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/62 "2013-03-14T09:10:16Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > I read up on that in Wiki today. Nothing against him was ever proved, but now when he’s sitting where he is, there will be reporters looking for the big scoop. > > Rumors were that he housed secret prisons and helped army and police officials adapt children of the “disappeared”. This was investigated in Argentina and no prosecution took place. > > Estimates of deaths range from just over 9,000 to 30,000. > > [Pope Francis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis) > > [Dirty War - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War#.22Annihilation_decrees.22%C2%A0) Yea, I was aware of the allegations. Some appear well-substantiated but I’m not at all surprised there were no prosecutions. That is one sanitised wiki page. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/63 "2013-03-14T11:12:34Z")
> [@Kepler1571](#): > > Even the recent “conservative” popes have looked like Jane Addams on the wealth gap with zero effect on the plutocracy, but it is still good to see this pope take the name Francis for symbolic value. One hopes that he will point out even more forcefully that the perpetuation of poverty in a rich world is the signature moral failing of our time. It sounds like Francis the first is a good man,but If the church keeps it’s stand on social issues like Birth Control, even though he may look for the good of the poor , he is encouraging more poor by having people have more children than they can care for, like Haiti, and other countries that don’t allow people the right to decide how many or if they want children.In Mexico there are so many living in poverty, and I know a family well who live in the southern part of Mexico who still wash their clothes by hand have no running water and so many with no education. Of course the Church seems more like a dictatorship than anything else, and I doubt if people who think for themselves will follow it’s teachings. I see signs on a lot of churches around here that say"Catholics come home" I see it as a parent asking a child to return to an abusive relationship! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/64 "2013-03-14T11:34:26Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Well, they got 2 out of my 3 wishes (Latin American and Jesuit). Maybe the next time they can get the third, and most wanted (liberation theology follower). OTOH, those who follow that are likely to NOT be in positions of power, due to the nature of their calling. But man, that would be so much cooler. He’s not a follower of TdlL, but the information I’ve read indicates he did push for and achieve inclusion of some of its tenets in sinodial documents. He’s a teacher, a man who doesn’t like having others do for him what he’s himself able of doing, and a man of science. THE Francis is evidently the first saint of that name, but any of the others was as much of an unstoppable force as Assissi, and both Xavier and Borgia were Jesuits… KAAAAARL! How do you say _carambola_ in English? _trots over to the dictionary_ Apparently, carom or combination shot, which would make that name a nice little three-sides combo. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/65 "2013-03-14T11:42:50Z")
> [@For You](#): > > This new guy was/is a Jesuit, meaning he had some involvement in _education_, which tends to center on _young-ish males_, so keep clear of the fan, folks. _checks inside underwear_ Still a Jesuit-educated female, from the priests who came to the Nuns whenever one was needed until college. The focus of male orders on male students is from when most schools were not co-ed; you’re several decades late. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/66 "2013-03-14T11:48:16Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It sounds like Francis the first is a good man,but If the church keeps it’s stand on social issues like Birth Control, even though he may look for the good of the poor , he is encouraging more poor by having people have more children than they can care for, like Haiti, and other countries that don’t allow people the right to decide how many or if they want children.In Mexico there are so many living in poverty, and I know a family well who live in the southern part of Mexico who still wash their clothes by hand have no running water and so many with no education. > > Of course the Church seems more like a dictatorship than anything else, and I doubt if people who think for themselves will follow it’s teachings. I see signs on a lot of churches around here that say"Catholics come home" I see it as a parent asking a child to return to an abusive relationship! I dunno. The church says lots of things about sex before marriage, outside of marriage, divorce, killing, greed, etc. Christians blow off everything they don’t like without a second thought. I have a hard time believing they would suddenly start using condoms just because the pope told them to. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/67 "2013-03-14T12:13:36Z")
On the topic of birth control, as far as the people themselves go, there are basically only two types of Catholics any more: Those who reject the teachings of the Church hierarchy concerning birth control, and those who also reject the teachings but pretend that they don’t. Even an organization with as much bureaucratic inertia as the Church can’t stay out of alignment with its flock forever. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/68 "2013-03-14T12:14:53Z")
Huh, the Jesuits are well involved in all stages of education. I mean, Georgetown University is co-ed, well known, and Jesuit. That they’re so involved in education is what makes them also argumentative smartasses. The Jesuit school back home is co-ed in elementary school, boys-only in secondary school, and one of the best schools. Granted, from what my dad told me (my bro studied in that school), this was what the wealthier patrons of the school desired too. They have a sister school right next to it, all-girls (but run by a different religious order). I almost went there for secondary school. Both my bro and I were/would have been scholarshipped, no way we could pay their tuition. And I know others who also went there on scholarship. **Nava** , yea, I wanted someone with more tdll, which would be cool, no? My favorite priest is Jesuit, and he’s a historian, university professor, author of non-fiction history books, and organizer and teacher in a prison program to give convicts a chance of rehab and education. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/69 "2013-03-14T12:18:21Z")
BTW, Catholic church does approve the use of natural family planning (not the rhythm, but the modern version which includes basal temperature, among other things). Also, they’re OK with abstinence. 😉 That those two methods of preventing pregnancies are not what the majority of people use/want, is another point. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/70 "2013-03-14T12:19:57Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I dunno. The church says lots of things about sex before marriage, outside of marriage, divorce, killing, greed, etc. Christians blow off everything they don’t like without a second thought. I have a hard time believing they would suddenly start using condoms just because the pope told them to. The goal isn’t for the church to order poor people to use condoms. It’s for the church to stop opposing efforts to make birth control available to people who want it, and stop filling gullible people’s heads with the idea that it’s a sin. This is one of those cases where we’re not even asking the church to be a force for good, but just to stop being a force for evil. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/71 "2013-03-14T12:21:38Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Huh, the Jesuits are well involved in all stages of education. I mean, Georgetown University is co-ed, well known, and Jesuit. That they’re so involved in education is what makes them also argumentative smartasses. Exactly. The Jesuits deserve a lot of adjectives, but ignorant isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/72 "2013-03-14T12:43:55Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > THE Francis is evidently the first saint of that name… Giovanni Bernardone, the playboy cloth merchant’s son of Assisi, affected the latest _haute couture_ stylish men’s clothing, straight from Paris, and hence was nicknamed Francesco, “Frenchy”, by his friends. Then he went away to become a hero in the wars. What he saw there, the carnage, uncaring, waste, and venality, hit him like a ton of bricks. He came back a changed man, and took to wandering in solitary places. One day, he stopped to pray in the ruins of the Church of San Damiano, and heard, quite clearly, from the painted crucifix hanging over the altar, “Francis, rebuild My church, which as you can see is falling into ruin.” So he did. * * * I think it’s important to remember that at that time, the morals of the clergy were the stuff of ribald jokes, there was a sense that the hierarchy was too inclined to play at power politics and had lost track of the needs of the people it supposedly ministered to, and in general the Church was more and more seen as irrelevant to everyday life. For this reason, I think the choice of the new Pope’s name is significant, to an extent it would be difficult to overstate. I am old enough to remember 1958, when the new Pope was seen as a placeholder, too old to make any significant difference. “Truly we live in _interesting_ times!” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/73 "2013-03-14T17:52:21Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > People are always shocked, SHOCKED, to find that the Pope is (gasp!) CATHOLIC! You say that as if “Catholic” by definition means “conservative Catholic.” Most of the Catholics I know personally are not conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/74 "2013-03-14T18:49:49Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I am old enough to remember 1958, when the new Pope was seen as a placeholder, too old to make any significant difference. > > “Truly we live in _interesting_ times!” 🙂 And without looking it up that would be Monsignore Angelo Roncalli, aye? Truly, a meek man who was not going to rock any boats. > [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Huh, the Jesuits are well involved in all stages of education. I mean, Georgetown University is co-ed, well known, and Jesuit. That they’re so involved in education is what makes them also argumentative smartasses. When I was looking at grad school in the US, one of my requirements was “no Jesuits”, since I was somewhat saturated with them at the time. Bloody hell but there’s a TON of Jesuit Universities over there! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/75 "2013-03-14T19:03:06Z")
I’ve never actually met a Jesuit at a Jesuit university. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/76 "2013-03-14T19:06:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’ve never actually met a Jesuit at a Jesuit university. 😃 This is extremely funny! My experience with Jesuit schools is all the students are Jews. (The faculty, though… kinda hard to miss the Jesuits there.) ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/77 "2013-03-14T22:03:30Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > People are always shocked, SHOCKED, to find that the Pope is (gasp!) CATHOLIC! Does he shit in the woods, though? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/78 "2013-03-14T23:30:29Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > I read up on that in Wiki today. Nothing against him was ever proved, but now when he’s sitting where he is, there will be reporters looking for the big scoop. > > Rumors were that he housed secret prisons and helped army and police officials adapt children of the “disappeared”. This was investigated in Argentina and no prosecution took place. > > Estimates of deaths range from just over 9,000 to 30,000. > > [Pope Francis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis) > > [Dirty War - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War#.22Annihilation_decrees.22%C2%A0) Whether or not he was guilty of any sins of commission, he was part of the Catholic hierarchy that decided they weren’t going to rock any boats while the generals tortured and ‘disappeared’ thousands of people. The Church was really the only institution that could have threatened the legitimacy of the junta just by speaking out. But they, including our new Pope, took a pass. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/79 "2013-03-14T23:34:09Z")
Some people are alleging that he didn’t do enough to stand up to the government, although there’s the question of how much he could’ve done. There have been some reports about Bergoglio himself helping people either avoid punishment or escape the country. So it’s possible that didn’t do enough in terms of policy but still extended himself to help individuals in at least some cases. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/80 "2013-03-14T23:36:40Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Whether or not he was guilty of any sins of commission, he was part of the Catholic hierarchy that decided they weren’t going to rock any boats while the generals tortured and ‘disappeared’ thousands of people. The Church was really the only institution that could have threatened the legitimacy of the junta just by speaking out. But they, including our new Pope, took a pass. Wouldn’t it be more probable that the bishop would just have gotten himself disappeared as well? I can think of few examples in history of anyone bringing down a fascist dictatorship by sternly lecturing them into being nicer people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845.md?page=5)