# What sort of pope will Pope Francis be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845 "2013-03-13T19:43:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/121 "2013-03-17T11:40:59Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If one is an unwanted child it will not receive the love and care that can be given if wanted. The couple should be able to decide for them selves if they want children or how many. Children from a happy marriage have less health problems and better emotional health then those who don’t. If the couple want more or less ( or no Children) it should be their choice not form any other source. A couple who love their children will look to their children’s future happiness and should have the right to decide for themselves. Yea, and that seems to be covered in the part quoted by **doreen** that you excluded. Look, I’m not a fan of natural family planning (which again, is used by non-Catholics), but it is an effective method of birth control (again, ask some Dopers who practice it). That the typical very poor Catholic doesn’t practice them, or know they exist, or how to use it, is a problem, and is due in part to lack of education. Hmm… what Catholic group is well known for championing education of the masses? 😉 As to the comments regarding the new Pope, the article on BBC cites a couple of civil rights spokepersons in Argentina who admit that the he was NOT involved with the junta, there are no ties with him to the junta, and that while he may not have been vocal opponent, there are examples of others who kept asking the military “Don’t do this” or “Release X person”, and the military simply refused to pay attention to them. So even IF he had say anything, he may still have been ignored, as others were. The guy is conservative, I do not like him that much (I’d rather have my favorite priest be Pope 😉 ), but to consider him the worst of the worst, it is an overstretch. If he focuses more on education and helping the poor (which means a lot of education), and gives some austerity back to the church, that may be more than what the previous Pope did. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/122 "2013-03-17T16:24:55Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > What would Jesus have done? Pass by on the other side? I’m mixing my homilies here, but someone should point out that Jesus encouraged people to support Rome via paying their taxes. There was no suggestion of impeaching Caesar. Rome is pretty much the yardstick against which other murderous dictatorships are measured, and I don’t recall Jesus speaking up directly against it- aside from the subtext of, “you could have had a more informative Messiah had this regime been less murderous.” OTOH, Jesus is kind of the ultimate example of the positive side effects of a murderous regime- there’s no crucifixion without it! ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/123 "2013-03-17T16:30:15Z")
Not that Jesus’ execution at the hands of a dictatorship, as such, is required in doctrine, right? Really any suffering death could have worked, because the redemptive value of it wasn’t dependent on Roman agency. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/124 "2013-03-17T16:45:19Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’m mixing my homilies here, but someone should point out that Jesus encouraged people to support Rome via paying their taxes. There was no suggestion of impeaching Caesar. I have lots of doubts that his tax position was to support Rome, IMHO the constant going to houses of the publicans was to subvert the tax collectors, and I can not see the deal in Acts of having the rich members to give all his possessions as not causing any problems to the job of the publicans. His classic retort to the pharisees regarding taxes seems to me as just an acknowledgment to the then current state of affairs, but in context his overall message was that Rome was going down when the kingdom came. Not much of a problem to say that they should pay to the rulers to keep your enemies off track on what was going on in the background. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Rome is pretty much the yardstick against which other murderous dictatorships are measured, and I don’t recall Jesus speaking up directly against it- aside from the subtext of, “you could have had a more informative Messiah had this regime been less murderous.” OTOH, Jesus is kind of the ultimate example of the positive side effects of a murderous regime- there’s no crucifixion without it! And I think that there were more reasons why the \*\*Romans \*\*crucified him, they also finally did notice what Jesus was doing with the publicans. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/125 "2013-03-17T17:33:15Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > No they don’t, there is a concept called _Paternidad responsable_ in Spanish (I’m having problems finding the correct name in English), which says specifically that you shouldn’t have children you can’t afford, either in purely financial terms, emotional ones, etc. > > I swear, the immense majority of the times someone complains about RCC’s position on anything they don’t even know what the position is. > ETA: that was in reply to **monavis**. So if you are at your limit in the RCC and birth control & abortion are sins, then I guess you need to be abstinent with your spouse after age 20? Wow! That sounds like a workable plan. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/126 "2013-03-17T18:35:40Z")
Um… Natural family planning is acceptable. Really, there are other things I do not agree with, but repeating that part and ignoring that NFP is acceptable, is, well, ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/127 "2013-03-17T19:34:19Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Um… Natural family planning is acceptable. > > Really, there are other things I do not agree with, but repeating that part and ignoring that NFP is acceptable, is, well, ignorant. In a world where there is one acre of arable land for each and every living human, we have left no margin for error. Practically speaking, no, natural family planning is not acceptable anymore. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/128 "2013-03-17T20:39:25Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > It actually does - although in the typical bureaucratese. > > The “certain” period of time would be people who decide not to have another child until the baby is 2 or until the father graduates in 3 years, etc . The “indefinite amount of time” would be people who decide not to have more children until they can afford it or until one parent’s health improves, etc. The encyclical is attempting to draw a distinction between those who decide not to have additional children until some condition changes (although that condition may in fact never change) , and those who simply do not want any more children regardless of their ability to care for them. Well, I read that but didn’t interpret it quite that way, but if this is so, then it goes back to what I was saying earlier when I doubted Christians & Catholics really ever do anything they don’t feel like doing even if it comes right from the Pope’s mouth. He can preach 'til he’s blue in the face but if it isn’t also easy and trendy, it’s not getting done. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/129 "2013-03-18T18:42:32Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > It actually does - although in the typical bureaucratese. > > The “certain” period of time would be people who decide not to have another child until the baby is 2 or until the father graduates in 3 years, etc . The “indefinite amount of time” would be people who decide not to have more children until they can afford it or until one parent’s health improves, etc. The encyclical is attempting to draw a distinction between those who decide not to have additional children until some condition changes (although that condition may in fact never change) , and those who simply do not want any more children regardless of their ability to care for them. If they don’t want any children then it is likely that they won’t be good parents, It is acting like a dictator if the church can make a couple think they have to have children when they are not wanted! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/130 "2013-03-18T18:55:32Z")
> [@For You](#): > > In a world where there is one acre of arable land for each and every living human, we have left no margin for error. Practically speaking, no, natural family planning is not acceptable anymore. The sad thing is what the RCC calls natural is really not natural, Waiting 'till one takes their temperature , etc. is not natural. Nor is it a way for couples to enjoy their sexual pleasures when it is the best time for them. Humans have and need the use of their sexuality for more than just conceiving a child. It makes for a better Marriage if they can be spontaneous. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/131 "2013-03-18T19:28:29Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If they don’t want any children then it is likely that they won’t be good parents, It is acting like a dictator if the church can make a couple think they have to have children when they are not wanted! IIRC correctly, you know that according to Church teaching ( whether you or I or anyone else agrees) married couples must be open to having children. It would be at least as accurate (perhaps more accurate )to say that the Church teaches that those who don’t want children should remain celibate ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/132 "2013-03-19T00:23:44Z")
I just wish the pope would stand up and say “ya know, we definitely fulfilled that “be fruitful and multiply” commandment and since we now have a surfeit of people it is now officially OK to prevent conception and have sex at the same time”. But I won’t hold my breath. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/133 "2013-03-19T00:35:13Z")
I don’t want to read too much into his presentation of himself as the “humble servant” and all that. A lot of what he’s being noted for this last week is a pose, sincere or not, and easy enough to fake. We’ll see what he does over time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/134 "2013-03-19T01:57:21Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Um… Natural family planning is acceptable. …and just about as effective as praying the baby away. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/135 "2013-03-19T02:03:48Z")
> [@For You](#): > > In a world where there is one acre of arable land for each and every living human, we have left no margin for error. Practically speaking, no, natural family planning is not acceptable anymore. I’d love to see a quote for that. There hasn’t been more food availablt per person ever in the history of humanity. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > I don’t want to read too much into his presentation of himself as the “humble servant” and all that. A lot of what he’s being noted for this last week is a pose, sincere or not, and easy enough to fake. We’ll see what he does over time. He’s been doing the humble thing for a couple of decades. It may be a charade, but idon’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/136 "2013-03-19T02:34:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > …and just about as effective as praying the baby away. If by that you mean “as effective as the birth control pill,” then yes. [Natural Family Planning Method As Effective As Contraceptive Pill, New Research Finds | ScienceDaily](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070221065200.htm) NFP/FAM. Our motto is: It’s Not The Rhythm Method. [http://www.livestrong.com/article/210679-effectiveness-of-natural-family-planning-methods/](http://www.livestrong.com/article/210679-effectiveness-of-natural-family-planning-methods/) ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/137 "2013-03-19T03:37:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > and he seems like the kind of guy who would be able to **reign** in corruption and worldliness within the Church. Color me cautiously optimistic. (bolding mine) Oops, got a homonym there that reversed the meaning what you were trying to say. reign: what a king (or pope) does, from his throne rein: what you meant - a reference to pulling on a horse’s reins and yelling, “Whoa!” ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/138 "2013-03-19T11:16:31Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’m mixing my homilies here, but someone should point out that Jesus encouraged people to support Rome via paying their taxes. There was no suggestion of impeaching Caesar. > > Rome is pretty much the yardstick against which other murderous dictatorships are measured, and I don’t recall Jesus speaking up directly against it- aside from the subtext of, “you could have had a more informative Messiah had this regime been less murderous.” OTOH, Jesus is kind of the ultimate example of the positive side effects of a murderous regime- there’s no crucifixion without it! Ah. You’re from the pick and choose to suit myself branch of Christianity. Got it. The Jesus I grew up with and the Jesus who told the parable of The Good Samaritan was not one who turned a blind eye to suffering. And again to note - the RCC in Argentina has acknowledged their wrong-doing. They, unlike their colleagues in Chile and Brazil, did not practice what they preached. The RCC is Agentina, unlike The Good Samaritan and the RCC in the face of other brutal South American dictatorships, passed by on the other side. I beleive Jesus would have big issues with this. Your Jesus doesn’t give a damn either way. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/139 "2013-03-19T14:11:59Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > If by that you mean “as effective as the birth control pill,” then yes. [Natural Family Planning Method As Effective As Contraceptive Pill, New Research Finds | ScienceDaily](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070221065200.htm) > NFP/FAM. Our motto is: It’s Not The Rhythm Method. [http://www.livestrong.com/article/210679-effectiveness-of-natural-family-planning-methods/](http://www.livestrong.com/article/210679-effectiveness-of-natural-family-planning-methods/) :eek: I stand corrected. Having said that, my wife’s best friend got married six months ago and converted to Catholicism. They tried NFP and failed miserably at it; they announced her pregnancy last month. 😃 She’s an obstetric nurse, so I have to assume she was doing it properly, too. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845/140 "2013-03-19T14:16:42Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > If by that you mean “as effective as the birth control pill,” then yes. [Natural Family Planning Method As Effective As Contraceptive Pill, New Research Finds | ScienceDaily](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070221065200.htm) > NFP/FAM. Our motto is: It’s Not The Rhythm Method. [http://www.livestrong.com/article/210679-effectiveness-of-natural-family-planning-methods/](http://www.livestrong.com/article/210679-effectiveness-of-natural-family-planning-methods/) There is one very big and important difference between FAM and NFP, which is that with NFP (aka, the Catholic church’s recommended method), you are supposed to completely abstain from sex during the woman’s fertile periods. With FAM you can just use a barrier method instead. Completely abstaining from sex during the exact time that a woman is most likely to be interested in sex seems like a terrible idea to me, for a lot of reasons. Also, that study was based on people who use the method correctly. I think you’d agree that there’s a rather steeper learning curve, and much more potential for error, with symptothermal charting than there is for using a condom or a birth-control pill. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-sort-of-pope-will-pope-francis-be/652845.md?page=8)