# What stage is the US empire's decline at? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194 "2011-01-19T13:36:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/21 "2011-01-19T18:22:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > An imperial moment would have been when GW paraded through the streets of Washington with captured Iraqi’s in chains and baggage trains of the represented wealth of Iraq precessing behind him as the US annexed Iraq and installed a US Governor in Baghdad. Possibly in a chariot. Pffft! That’s for wimp empires! I want the real Assyrian-Mongol-Tartar-Aztec shit! I want pyramids of heads! Flaying-and-impaling! Former cities you could ride across at night without breaking your horse’s leg! ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/22 "2011-01-19T18:27:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He wasn’t in military uniform. > > As for the OP, I’m with those who say: an OP is more than linking to a video and asking what we think. No, of course not, he was just wearing an outfit that military people uniformly wear: [http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/2008/01/23/](http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/2008/01/23/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/23 "2011-01-19T18:28:25Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Regardless (I’m sure there are plenty of posters who think we are an empire, even if we are a democracy) . . . No contradiction. Athens in Pericles’ day was a democracy and an empire – a pure direct democracy internally (slaves, women, I know, shut up), but its network of subject-allies (each required to be a democracy internally) was like one big _polis_ where every citizen was a _polis_ and Athens was the tyrant. Any resemblance to the current U.S. global network of bases and allies and occupied territories is . . . well, is the subject of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/24 "2011-01-19T18:29:14Z")
And of course, even if we stipulate that there is such a thing as an American Empire, and that such an Empire is in decline, so what? What happened to the British Empire or the French Empire? They are now one with Nineveh and Tyre. Except, the Brits and the French are better off now than they ever were. Getting rid of their empires was a net positive. The Brits aren’t crouching in the ruins of their monuments roasting rats on a campfire of oil paintings just because there’s no more British Empire. So, we get our butts spanked in Iraq and Afghanistan, and come back home chastened, and we stop wasting so much blood and treasure on foreign adventures. And this is a bad thing, why? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/25 "2011-01-19T18:37:46Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > No, of course not, he was just wearing an outfit that military people uniformly wear: [http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/2008/01/23/](http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/2008/01/23/) No, military people don’t “uniformly” wear flight suits. You’re just wrong. And Bush isn’t president anyway, so it’s irrelevant to what stage of alleged decline we’re in now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/26 "2011-01-19T18:41:16Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And of course, even if we stipulate that there is such a thing as an American Empire, and that such an Empire is in decline, so what? What happened to the British Empire or the French Empire? They are now one with Nineveh and Tyre. Except, the Brits and the French are better off now than they ever were. Getting rid of their empires was a net positive. The Brits aren’t crouching in the ruins of their monuments roasting rats on a campfire of oil paintings just because there’s no more British Empire. Do the Brits feel that way today, I wonder? This is pure speculation on my part, but I always read the “What have the Romans done for us?!” scene in _Life of Brian_ as reflecting mixed feelings in British society about their imperial heritage – with pride and a sense of being wounded by ingratitude definitely being parts of that mix. Do many Brits lament the passing of the Empire? (I recall a Brit Doper who seemed to think they still **have** it in some sense, can’t recall his name, haven’t seen him around lately.) > [@Lemur866](#): > > So, we get our butts spanked in Iraq and Afghanistan, and come back home chastened, and we stop wasting so much blood and treasure on foreign adventures. And this is a bad thing, why? Because there might be **other** foreign adventurers? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/27 "2011-01-19T18:44:55Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > We haven’t entered the empire stage yet. We need to wait for Caesar to return from Gaul first… > > -XT Let’s nuke Caesar this time. I am depressed cause my fav painting there was the last one, Desolation? ---
**Author:** ![carsarenotthefuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@carsarenotthefuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carsarenotthefuture)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/28 "2011-01-19T18:49:11Z")
Good corrective to the flawed framework of discussion within which China/US relations are discussed: > **[Two Correctives on China](http://pink-scare.blogspot.com/2011/01/two-correctives-on-china.html)** > > There's a lot of "clash of the superpowers" talk amidst Hu Jintao's visit to Washington ( e.g. see here ). The anxieties about "decline" an... ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/29 "2011-01-19T18:57:03Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > We haven’t entered the empire stage yet. We need to wait for Caesar to return from Gaul first… > > -XT The end of the Cold War was analogous to the end of the Punic Wars. We’re now just before the outbreak of the civil wars, as per this great post: > [@Kizarvexius](#): > > :Before Gaius Marius, legions were called up largely through conscription. This worked well as long as a) there were plenty of strapping young lads growing up on family farms who could take up the family armor and march off to war; and b) campaigns were strictly local affairs and the men could be back home in time to help out with the harvest. > > But as Rome became the dominant force in Italy, its wars became lengthier matters requiring multi-year campaigns. The yeoman farmers, absent for years on end, returned to find their farms bankfupt and bought out by wealthy landowers. The farmland of Italy was reorganized into giant plantations (latifundiae), worked by slave labor, that pulled a Wal-Mart on the remaining family farmers and drove them out of business. The cities, particularly Rome, played host to ever-larger numbers of indigent citizens who lived hand-to-mouth, and became dependant on the periodic grain doles issued by the Senate (can we say “welfare state?”). > > Then one fateful day (around 133 B.C.) Tiberius Gracchus took a ride through the farming countryside outside of Rome. Distressed to find mile after mile of slave-worked latifundia and not a single family-owned farm, he sought election as tribune of the plebs and set about trying to reverse this trend. His agrarian reform bills would sow the first seeds of the hundred year struggle known as the Roman Revolution. > > One aspect of this struggle dealt with the nature and composition of Rome’s armies. The old school conservatives believed that the only soldiers worth their salt (sorry) were those who owned property and were therefore considered to have a genuine stake in affairs of the state. But as Rome’s armies went off to one campaign after another, frequently led by incompetent commanders, the number of propertied citizens who qualified for conscription duty sunk to levels completely incapable of sustaining the need for manpower. > > It took the rise of Gaius Marius (the brother-in-law of Julius Caesar’s father) to shake things up. Over the strident objections of the senate (whose minions had assassinated Tiberius Gracchus and his brother Gaius), Marius legislated a the opening of the legions to those who had previously been ineligible to serve due to poverty. > > While, on the one hand, this move certainly opened a untapped reservoir of manpower for the military, it also led eventually to the development of armies that were more loyal to their commanders than to the State. The feud between Marius and his protégée Sulla eventually led to civil war as each commander brought his armies into the fray. > > From then on, a professional army became the norm. > > * * * > > Pax et Bonum, > > Kizarvexius So we no longer fight wars with drafted citizens, we now have soldiers fighting near-perpetual wars on the barbarian frontiers, and we’re talking about giving American citizenship to foreigners who agree to serve in the Army. I’d say we’re now in the era of Gracchus. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/30 "2011-01-19T19:19:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, military people don’t “uniformly” wear flight suits. You’re just wrong. - raises hand \* I’m a military person, and I wear several uniforms, one of which is my flight suit. The garment is of standardized – ‘uniform’, if you will – pattern and colour, and includes nationality, rank, qualification, unit, and name markings. While I don’t wear the flight suit to fancy parades and formal dinners, it is in fact my daily uniform most of the time. And is ordered worn as such. Now, the original comment may have been intended to draw an allusion to the standard [Dictator Kit](http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://lamutamu.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/amin_dada_lg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://lamutamu.com/category/tyrannydrag/&usg=__AaaSjU6r_mzd0zuFHp-9Maag6B8=&h=491&w=338&sz=43&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=XBNUrByYBlsTfM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=103&ei=gzg3TZe8CIGclgfB8KjOAg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dafrican%2Bdictator%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1C1DVCJ_enCA399CA399%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D933%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&oei=gzg3TZe8CIGclgfB8KjOAg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=34&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0&tx=70&ty=88), and Bush’s flight suit may not have had ranks or badges, but it’s definitely fair to describe a flight suit as a uniform. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/31 "2011-01-19T19:31:39Z")
Let’s look at the timeline. The Roman Republic was founded in 508 BC. It conquered its immediate surroundings and incorporated that territory into a larger homeland. Then around 280 BC it began to conquer overseas territories and build an “empire”. It officially became a political empire in 27 BC when Republican rule was replaced by dictatorship following a series of civil wars. It came close to collapsing in 234 AD but pulled itself back together. Its original Roman homeland fell in 476 but it had established a new homeland in the east which lasted until 1453. So how will America compare? Our country was founded in 1776. We’ve conquered our immediate surroundings and build a bigger homeland. We invaded Iraq in 2003 (a year ahead of schedule) and presumedly that’s the beginning of our overseas imperial phase. That means we’ll be due to abandon our republican government and become a real empire around 2256. We’ll have our crisis period around the twenty-sixth century. We’ll start a new homeland, maybe in Australia or Mars, and America will fall to hordes of Canadian barbarians around 2759. But the Neo-American Empire will survive and last until around 3736 when the final bastions of New Washington gets conquered by aliens. But we’ll have had a good run. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/32 "2011-01-19T20:26:46Z")
We need to have that series of civil wars and a dictator as well. I don’t think that the Republican/Democrat infighting constitutes real ‘civil war’…and GW DEFINITELY does not fit the bill for a dictator. Also, before we can be invaded by the hordes of Canada don’t we need to conquer most of the country, only to fail to capture and subdue the whole thing due to the trickery of one Canadian trained and equipped by the US war machine?? I, for one, am looking forward to placing our imperial boots on the necks of our Canadian brethren and sistren and will leave it to my distant ancestors to deal with the howling Canadian hordes sometime in the future… -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/33 "2011-01-19T20:27:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Let’s look at the timeline. Don’t. Things work **faster** in the modern world. Look at the timespan it took the British Empire to rise and fall. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/34 "2011-01-19T20:33:54Z")
1497 to 1997? That’s a pretty good run I’d say. Granted, they weren’t top dog that whole time. Still, our pitiful 200 years (depending on when you want to mark the start of our ‘empire’) doesn’t seem to compare very well. -XT ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/35 "2011-01-19T21:20:32Z")
For those who don’t think the US is an empire, what were the invasions of Panama, Grenada and Iraq if not imperialism? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/36 "2011-01-19T21:26:17Z")
Have we set up imperial like administration of any of those places? Are they being directly controlled by US appointed administrators? Do they pay taxes to the US? Are we directly or indirectly exploiting their resources for our own gain? What does ‘empire’ mean to you, exactly? What defines an ‘empire’? It seems you mean ‘empire’ to be any country that is a superpower and has a focus other than inward. Personally, I’d say that the US COULD be an empire, based on how we acquired a lot of our current territory from the Native Americans. But if that’s the case then most countries are ‘empires’ as well, so the term becomes nearly meaningless. Myself, I think ‘empire’ implies an imperial form of government (i.e. a dictator or some sort of monarchy or emperor). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/37 "2011-01-19T21:34:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t. Things work **faster** in the modern world. Look at the timespan it took the British Empire to rise and fall. Sure and I pointed that out. Rome - founded their country 508 BC - first conquest of a “foreign” colony (Sicily) 280 BC - 228 years America - founded their country 1776 - first conquest of a “foreign” colony (Iraq) 2003 - 227 years So like I said, we’re a year ahead of schedule. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/38 "2011-01-19T21:43:52Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > We need to have that series of civil wars and a dictator as well. I don’t think that the Republican/Democrat infighting constitutes real ‘civil war’…and GW DEFINITELY does not fit the bill for a dictator. > > Also, before we can be invaded by the hordes of Canada don’t we need to conquer most of the country, only to fail to capture and subdue the whole thing due to the trickery of one Canadian trained and equipped by the US war machine?? I, for one, am looking forward to placing our imperial boots on the necks of our Canadian brethren and sistren and will leave it to my distant ancestors to deal with the howling Canadian hordes sometime in the future… > > -XT Ooh! Ooh! Can I be Canadian Hannibal? 🙂 (We’re still extending the Punic war analogy, right? Or is it the social war?) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/39 "2011-01-19T21:44:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Have we set up imperial like administration of any of those places? Are they being directly controlled by US appointed administrators? Do they pay taxes to the US? Are we directly or indirectly exploiting their resources for our own gain? > > What does ‘empire’ mean to you, exactly? What defines an ‘empire’? It seems you mean ‘empire’ to be any country that is a superpower and has a focus other than inward. > > Personally, I’d say that the US COULD be an empire, based on how we acquired a lot of our current territory from the Native Americans. But if that’s the case then most countries are ‘empires’ as well, so the term becomes nearly meaningless. Myself, I think ‘empire’ implies an imperial form of government (i.e. a dictator or some sort of monarchy or emperor). > > -XT I’d say it’s an empire when a country starts establishing its rule over foreign peoples while not making them part of the mother country. So the United States was not forming an empire when it occupied places like Ohio or Oklahoma or Oregon - it was just expanding the size of the original United States. Imperialism would be something like the Canal Zone or the Phillipines or Iraq - places that were ruled by the United States but not part of the United States. The only places like that now are Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and our Pacific territories. So our imperial phase has barely begun - we have centuries of our Imperial Age ahead. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/40 "2011-01-19T21:47:10Z")
The U.S. empire is declining? Talk about whistling past the graveyard. We’ve spent the last decade adding territory to our direct control and strengthening our existing spheres of influence. We didn’t give up anything of note. Weren’t kicked out of anywhere by mobs with torches and pitchforks. Next we’ll go into a period of consolidation and rebuilding and then we’ll be ready for another round. Where’s a good next target do you suppose? South America is getting awfully uppity… The Romans would’ve been SHOCKED to learn they were running an empire in their joint. They were just exporting civilization donchaknow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194.md?page=3)