# What stage is the US empire's decline at? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194 "2011-01-19T13:36:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/41 "2011-01-19T21:48:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t. Things work **faster** in the modern world. Look at the timespan it took the British Empire to rise and fall. In the USA=Rome analogy, the British Empire was the Hellenistic-Macedonian empire that preceded Rome. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/42 "2011-01-19T21:55:12Z")
[QUOTE=antonio107] Ooh! Ooh! Can I be Canadian Hannibal? [/QUOTE] Actually, I was thinking of Arminius, but if you want to be the Canadian Hannibal then that’s fine too. You could bring them over the (Canadian) Rockies and lay waste to everything you can get too. We’ll see you for the final showdown in Ottawa in, say, 50 years? ETA: I’ll bring the salt… 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/43 "2011-01-19T22:01:51Z")
The USA is not (and has never been) an empire like Rome or GB. The only period when the USA tried imperialism was the era of the Spanish-American War, we added territories like Guam, Puerto Rico, and established rule of the Philippines. We got tired of imperialism fast-it cost us a bundle and gained us little. The period of US world hegemony is coming to an end-as it needs to (we are spending far too much on our miltary and neglecting our own country). Will China and India step up to the plate and share the world policeman role? I think not-they prefer that we continue to pay for it. What we need to do: make treaties with friendly nations on the basis of mutual benefit. And tell the Chinese to take care of the psychopath regime in N Korea-we wash our hands of it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/44 "2011-01-20T00:07:41Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > Ooh! Ooh! Can I be Canadian Hannibal? 🙂 > > (We’re still extending the Punic war analogy, right? Or is it the social war?) I knew [this story](http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-20028665-76.html) had a sinister undertone. ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/45 "2011-01-20T00:11:59Z")
[quote=“ralph124c, post:43, topic:568194”] The USA is not (and has never been) an empire like Rome or GB. There is definitely a considerable amount of semantic ambiguity regarding the word “Empire”. The USA certainly isn’t an empire in the, I suppose, historical sense ala Rome, France, Great Britain, Japan, China, Russia etc. I’ve always felt that colonialism formed a strong component of what it meant to be an old-school Empire. Aside from North American westward expansion, the US isn’t exporting en masse people to permanently live Iraq or Afghanistan or other areas directly or indirectly under their control. However, past actions do suggest a definite imperialist tone toward acquiring foreign resources and influencing politics that meet domestic demands and interests. Economic Empire? Probably, but they are hardly alone in that endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/46 "2011-01-20T00:17:58Z")
Kentucky. (sorry, I thought you asked what _state_ the decline was at) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/47 "2011-01-20T11:59:39Z")
Even if the US were an empire, I’d still take American Imperialism over Russian or Chinese Imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/48 "2011-01-20T12:20:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Sure and I pointed that out. > > Rome - founded their country 508 BC - first conquest of a “foreign” colony (Sicily) 280 BC - 228 years > America - founded their country 1776 - first conquest of a “foreign” colony (Iraq) 2003 - 227 years > > So like I said, we’re a year ahead of schedule. Iraq has never been a colony, and we’ve been invading countries pretty consistently since [1775](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Canada_%281775%29). You forgot all the other countries we’ve invaded like Mexico, Korea, Hawaii, Vietnam, Panama, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/49 "2011-01-20T12:32:32Z")
> [@EvilTOJ](#): > > Iraq has never been a colony, and we’ve been invading countries pretty consistently since [1775](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Canada_%281775%29). You forgot all the other countries we’ve invaded like Mexico, Korea, Hawaii, Vietnam, Panama, etc. Refresh my memory. Who did Obama appoint as the American proconsul in Mexico? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/50 "2011-01-20T12:57:32Z")
> [@Sablicious](#): > > [Lecture](http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/browse/video_popup.htm?vidURL=/tv/bigideas/stories/2010/08/17/2984171-mediarss-full.xml&vidTitle=America%20on%20the%20Edge%20of%20Chaos&vidLength=Full) > > [Pretty pictures](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Course_of_Empire) > > Rings very true for where the US seem to be now; over-stretched (waging wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan…), chaotic (Tea Party, gun laws, endemic violence…), desparate (kowtowing to India, China…), deficits of ‘Hellenic proportions’! > > What say you, SDMB, is the US in a state of destruction-cum-desolation? Compare today’s overstretched, chaotic, disparate US with the one in, say, 1864 and tell me we’re still in decline. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/51 "2011-01-20T16:47:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Refresh my memory. Who did Obama appoint as the American proconsul in Mexico? You ever heard about Texas, Arizona, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and California? And a gentleman called [James K. Polk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwIcWt1HKt8)? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/52 "2011-01-20T18:57:29Z")
Ok, so who did Polk appoint as proconsul? (nobody, that’s who) The territory we gained through his (admittedly aggressive) war was made part of the country, not a colony. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/53 "2011-01-20T19:01:10Z")
Does that make us a kingdom instead? Since we don’t have imperial administrators for our annexed territory, and instead all of the territory is directly incorporated into the central kingdom? -XT ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/54 "2011-01-20T19:36:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As we know from history, before the Empire declines, it needs to convert _en masse_ to a different religion. > > [Ready when you are.](http://www.subgenius.com/) Edward Gibbon argued that Christianity lead to the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Nevertheless, the Eastern Roman Empire survived until 1453, and was thoroughly Christian. The Holy Roman Empire can be seen as a restoration of the Western Roman Empire. It survived until 1806, and was also Christian. The Assyrian Empire was conquered by the Babylonian Empire, which was conquered by the Persian Empire, which was conquered by the Macedonian Empire, fragments of which were conquered by the Roman Empire. In none of these cases was there a change of religion in the empire that fell. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/55 "2011-01-20T19:45:38Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > No, of course not, he was just wearing an outfit that military people uniformly wear: [http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/2008/01/23/](http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/2008/01/23/) Could that have been a requirement to fly in? My my, jump much? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/56 "2011-01-20T19:51:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Refresh my memory. Who did Obama appoint as the American proconsul in Mexico? Some dude from _Sabado Gigante,_ I think. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/57 "2011-01-20T20:10:00Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Ok, so who did Polk appoint as proconsul? (nobody, that’s who) The territory we gained through his (admittedly aggressive) war was made part of the country, not a colony. I guess I don’t understand the distinction between outright annexation and colonization. So if you conquer territory and annex it, then you’re not an empire? But surely the Phillipines would count, right? That would make us an empire. But suppose we later annexed our colony and made the Phillipines a state, then we’d switch back to not being an empire? Because that’s pretty much exactly what happened with the Sandwich Islands. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/58 "2011-01-20T20:49:13Z")
[Empire:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire) > [@](#): > > The term _ **empire** _ derives from the Latin _imperium_ (power, authority). Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy. Geopolitically, the term empire has denoted very different, territorially-extreme states — at the strong end, the extensive Spanish Empire (16th c.) and the British Empire (19th c.), at the weak end, the Holy Roman Empire (8th c.–19th c.), in its Medieval and early-modern forms. > > Etymologically, the political usage of empire denotes a strong, centrally-controlled nation-state, but in the looser vernacular usage, it can denote a large-scale business enterprise (i.e. a transnational corporation) and a political organisation of either national-, regional- or city scale, controlled either by a person (a political boss) or a group authority (political bosses).[1] > > An imperial political structure is established and maintained two ways: (i) as a territorial empire of direct conquest and control with force (direct, physical action to compel the emperor’s goals), and (ii) as a coercive, hegemonic empire of indirect conquest and control with power (the perception that the emperor can physically enforce his desired goals). The former provides greater tribute and direct political control, yet limits further expansion because it absorbs military forces to fixed garrisons. The latter provides less tribute and indirect control, but avails military forces for further expansion.[2] Territorial empires (e.g. the Mongol Empire, the Median Empire) tended to be contiguous areas. The term on occasion has been applied to maritime empires or thalassocracies, (e.g. the Athenian and British Empires) with looser structures and more scattered territories. > > \ > > **American Empire;** identifying the USA’s American Empire, by its international behavior, is controversial. Stuart Creighton Miller posits that the public’s sense of innocence about Realpolitik (cf. American Exceptionalism) impairs popular recognition of US imperial conduct. Since it governed other countries via surrogates — domestically-weak, right-wing governments that collapse without US support.[7] G.W. Bush’s Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said: “We don’t seek empires. We’re not imperialistic; we never have been”[8] — directly contradicts Thomas Jefferson, in the 1780s, awaiting the fall of the Spanish empire: “. . . till our population can be sufficiently advanced to gain it from them piece by piece”.[9] This indicates that countries goals can change over 200 years.[10][11] In turn, Leftist historian Sidney Lens notes that from its inception the US has used every means to dominate other nations.[12] ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/59 "2011-01-21T02:48:40Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Does that make us a kingdom instead? Since we don’t have imperial administrators for our annexed territory, and instead all of the territory is directly incorporated into the central kingdom? > > -XT Well, as soon as I am king, yes. I’m still working out how I can claim divine right and still be an atheist, though. I don’t want to be some common dictator, they don’t dress as nice. This could take awhile, so don’t hold your breath. > [@Lemur866](#): > > I guess I don’t understand the distinction between outright annexation and colonization. So if you conquer territory and annex it, then you’re not an empire? > > But surely the Phillipines would count, right? That would make us an empire. But suppose we later annexed our colony and made the Phillipines a state, then we’d switch back to not being an empire? > > Because that’s pretty much exactly what happened with the Sandwich Islands. Yes, that’s how I understand the difference between a functional empire and non-empire. The Philippines counted, but they are independent now. Hawaii counted too, but it’s currently a state. So, without any colonies, I don’t think the U.S. qualifies. Are you saying, “Once an empire, always an empire”? If we annex a territory, and the prior inhabitants can become citizens (heck, they can grow up and rule the place); then we are conquering territory, but not creating an empire. If you think that just conquering and annexing territory makes you an empire, then there’s very few countries that don’t qualify. (On preview, I see that BG has posted the wiki definition, I don’t think the hegemonic empire described within is really an empire. Hegemonic control can be subverted or ignored in ways that imperial control generally cannot be. I won’t argue against us being called a hegemon.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194/60 "2011-01-21T04:08:37Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You ever heard about Texas, Arizona, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and California? First, Oklahoma wasn’t conquered from Mexico; it was part of the Louisiana Purchase. And Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California hardly qualify as imperial colonies - they’re a fully equal part of the United States. If you count a country itself as being its own empire then it makes the term meaningless - every nation in the history would be an empire. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stage-is-the-us-empires-decline-at/568194.md?page=4)