# What stupid shit do you have to believe to be a conservative today? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660 "2010-04-10T19:22:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/181 "2010-04-21T07:56:41Z")
There can be many reasons that people are living longer and more healthily in other countries with UHC that have nothing at all to do with UHC. For example, is obesity as common in those countries as it is in the U.S.? Are their populations more physically active (i.e., more people ride bicyces and walk?). Is drug use and its associated crime as prevalent as it is here. Are violent crimes as common? Any of these or any combination of these are a much more likely reason for better health and longivity stats in those countries than in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/182 "2010-04-21T10:19:58Z")
I’m not sure that qualifies, **Starkers**. It is abundantly stupid, no argument there. But is it something that conservatives \*have to \*believe? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/183 "2010-04-21T10:41:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > There can be many reasons that people are living longer and more healthily in other countries with UHC that have nothing at all to do with UHC. For example, is obesity as common in those countries as it is in the U.S.? Are their populations more physically active (i.e., more people ride bicyces and walk?). Is drug use and its associated crime as prevalent as it is here. Are violent crimes as common? Any of these or any combination of these are a much more likely reason for better health and longivity stats in those countries than in the U.S. What were the odds for the “American exceptionalism” argument again? And can we stop with the “ **Starkers** ” thing? It really annoys me when people act like parodying someone’s username constitutes a rebuttal of their position. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/184 "2010-04-21T10:47:48Z")
Apparently to be a UK Conservative, it’s all about \*\*“The Change[SUP]TM[/SUP]” \*\*now( Where’ve I heard that before?), and usually staid, self-serving, status quo-seeking leeches are now willing to promise to try anything, if we’ll just give them another chance to get it right. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/185 "2010-04-21T10:50:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > There can be many reasons that people are living longer and more healthily in other countries with UHC that have nothing at all to do with UHC. For example, is obesity as common in those countries as it is in the U.S.? Are their populations more physically active (i.e., more people ride bicyces and walk?). Is drug use and its associated crime as prevalent as it is here. Are violent crimes as common? Any of these or any combination of these are a much more likely reason for better health and longivity stats in those countries than in the U.S. Another useful measurement is “how likely are people in countries with UHC to declare bankruptcy due to medical costs?” In America, [most bankruptcies](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896) are caused by medical bills, and most people who declare bankruptcy because of medical bills had insurance at the time they incurred those medical bills. But people like you and Rand Rover want to talk about how bad UHC and taxes are for the economy? The real question is how bad is NOT having UHC for the economy! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/186 "2010-04-21T17:38:23Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Another useful measurement is “how likely are people in countries with UHC to declare bankruptcy due to medical costs?” > > In America, [most bankruptcies](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896) are caused by medical bills, and most people who declare bankruptcy because of medical bills had insurance at the time they incurred those medical bills. Most people? Your own cite says “about half”. > [@Mosier](#): > > But people like you and Rand Rover want to talk about how bad UHC and taxes are for the economy? The real question is how bad is NOT having UHC for the economy! My position is: a.) The number of health care related bankruptcies is nowhere near large enough to have a significant impact on the economy, and certainly no way comparable to the impact of taxes. b.) I’m not willing to put my and my family’s health care in the hands of the U.S. government so as to prevent bankruptcy for the relatively small number of people (as a percentage of the population) who declare it for health care related reasons (or for any other reason, for that matter). c.) It is not the proper role of government to inure people from having to file bankruptcy, and most certainly not by enacting sweeping and costly programs that take control over a very important part of our lives and put it in the hands of the U.S. government. Read [this article](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/04/19/veterans-health-claims-menstrual-disorder/) and [this article](http://www.heritage.org/Research/Lecture/Perspectives-on-the-European-Health-Care-Systems) and you’ll see examples of some of the reasons why I’m against government-run health care. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/187 "2010-04-21T19:50:12Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Most people? Your own cite says “about half”. > > My position is: > > a.) The number of health care related bankruptcies is nowhere near large enough to have a significant impact on the economy, and certainly no way comparable to the impact of taxes. Depending on how it was defined, there was a majority, and in any case there was clearly a plurality, indicating that this is a serious problem for many people. Not counted in this are those who lose the majority of their savings. > [@](#): > > b.) I’m not willing to put my and my family’s health care in the hands of the U.S. government so as to prevent bankruptcy for the relatively small number of people (as a percentage of the population) who declare it for health care related reasons (or for any other reason, for that matter). > > c.) It is not the proper role of government to inure people from having to file bankruptcy, and most certainly not by enacting sweeping and costly programs that take control over a very important part of our lives and put it in the hands of the U.S. government. Read [this article](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/04/19/veterans-health-claims-menstrual-disorder/) and [this article](http://www.heritage.org/Research/Lecture/Perspectives-on-the-European-Health-Care-Systems) and you’ll see examples of some of the reasons why I’m against government-run health care. It always surprises me that people would rather have their health care handled by a corporation whose goals are to deny payment as much as possible in order to maximize profits, versus a government entity who without a profit motive has a goal of providing the best service. Also a couple of examples of SNAFUs in the government sector is heavily outweighed by the mountains of complaints about HMOs denying coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/188 "2010-04-21T20:17:05Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Also a couple of examples of SNAFUs in the government sector is heavily outweighed by the mountains of complaints about HMOs denying coverage. I never said that my two links outweighed problems in the current system. What they do is illustrate how government works and why I don’t my family’s health care in its hands. Like it or not, people get lots of good care and immediate care through HMOs and insurance coverage. Again, flaws or loopholes in the current system can be and should be addressed legislatively, but a wholesale takeover of our health care by the government is going to result in all of us being subject to the problems outlined in those two links and more, as they are only the tip of the iceberg. What we’ve got here is a situation where 85% of the country’s population is perfectly happy with their health care and only a small percentage of the remaining 15% are in need of care. There are a great many ways to address the needs of that small percentage instead of turning the whole system upside down and leaving us all at the mercy of an inefficient, uncaring, hidebound and bureaucratic government-run system. Why do you think it has taken decades and decades of effort to enact some form of UHC in this country? It’s precisely because so many people know how the government operates and they want no part of it when it comes to their health care. The only good thing that can be said for government health care is that it’s better than nothing, and it should therefore exist for those few who need something that is better than nothing and then stay out of it when it comes to everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/189 "2010-04-21T23:30:51Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > that global warming exists (although I think the degree as to how much of it is from humans and how much is cyclical is debatable) Brief hijack – why does it matter? If it’s heating up due to human activity, humans must do everything they can to reduce that heating, because it will make our lives worse (not to mention the damage to nonhumans). If it’s heating up due mostly to natural cycles, humans must do everything they can to reduce their contribution to that heating, because it will make our lives worse (not to mention the damage to nonhumans). Since the end result is the same either way, it’s semantic at best. It’s like arguing about a serial killer’s particular pathology – whether it’s psychosis or schizophrenia or narcissistic personality disorder is academic; _first you stop the guy._ ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/190 "2010-04-22T02:24:10Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > The real question is how bad is NOT having UHC for the economy! You had me at !!! ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/191 "2010-04-22T06:57:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Doesn’t it bother you that your core beliefs are not based on things that are true? And who says they’re not? You? It is to laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/192 "2010-04-22T07:00:04Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Actually I owe you an apology, having conflated in my mind your posting style with that of certain other conservative posters in this board (some in this very thread) who could not in any way be considered “polite and courteous”. I’ve had a read back over your recent posts and do concede that the comparison is deeply unfair. > > That said, a few points remain. Firstly, politeness and courtesy are hardly a hallmark of the right-wing brand these days, your personal style notwithstanding (I mean, have you watched FoxNews lately? Or ever ventured over to Free Republic?). True, these are the noisy minority (one hopes they’re a minority) but they’re VERY noisy. > > And secondly, the broadbrush “all liberals/conservatives are doodyheads” thing is unfair and what you’ve done is just as bad as what the OP of this thread has done - take the actions of the aforementioned noisy minority and apply them to all. If you think the OP tars you with a brush better applied to others, perhaps you do need to consider the beams in the eyes of conservatives after all. Thank you. However, given the overall tone of this thread, I’m not sure that I painted with all that wide a brush. But I will make an increased effort to not do so in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/193 "2010-04-22T07:02:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > What we’ve got here is a situation where 85% of the country’s population is perfectly happy with their health care and only a small percentage of the remaining 15% are in need of care. There are a great many ways to address the needs of that small percentage instead of turning the whole system upside down and leaving us all at the mercy of an inefficient, uncaring, hidebound and bureaucratic government-run system. > > Why do you think it has taken decades and decades of effort to enact some form of UHC in this country? It’s precisely because so many people know how the government operates and they want no part of it when it comes to their health care. The only good thing that can be said for government health care is that it’s better than nothing, and it should therefore exist for those few who need something that is better than nothing and then stay out of it when it comes to everybody else. Well stated. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/194 "2010-04-22T07:18:17Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > And who says they’re not? You? It is to laugh. I try to lean the facts before I form an opinion. Why don’t you do the same? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/195 "2010-04-22T07:26:18Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Well stated. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/196 "2010-04-22T08:04:52Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You had me at !!! Rover, you’re such a romantic ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/197 "2010-04-22T10:47:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > What we’ve got here is a situation where 85% of the country’s population is perfectly happy with their health care and only a small percentage of the remaining 15% are in need of care. There are a great many ways to address the needs of that small percentage instead of turning the whole system upside down and leaving us all at the mercy of an inefficient, uncaring, hidebound and bureaucratic government-run system. What you have failed to do is tell us what HCR will change for the 85% who like their health care insurance. If they like what they have, how does that change under the new law? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/198 "2010-04-22T16:50:34Z")
Death panels. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660/199 "2010-04-22T18:58:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What you have failed to do is tell us what HCR will change for the 85% who like their health care insurance. If they like what they have, how does that change under the new law? My posts are almost always in regard to single-payer, for which the current bill is but a foot in the door. Incremental steps - this is how government operates when it wants to do something which it knows the populace won’t go for. And I don’t intend to stay silent as each step occurs because, hey, what’s being talked about now isn’t single-payer. Obama is on record as favoring a single-payer system, IIRC, Pelosi is and I know many members of Congress are. And of course many of the country’s liberals are for it. I think anyone here who is honest with themselves knows that single-payer is the ultimate left-wing goal when it comes to health care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-stupid-shit-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be-a-conservative-today/535660.md?page=9)