# What tableware was used before the renaissance period? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 17, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061 "2012-04-17T17:35:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/21 "2012-04-18T16:48:55Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I find this comment puzzling. Unless you’ve got _long_ noodles, like udon, noodle soup is perfectly convenient to drink right out of the bowl. Lentil soup, too (lentils are _tiny_). lots of things I’d call “soup” can be drunk, provided it’s been cut into small enough pieces. Everything that I call “soup” can. Although I do eat soup with a spoon. Maybe my soups have a greater solids content than yours; my lentils, my fabada or my cocido would need to be slurped/licked/grabbed before you were halfway done. ---
**Author:** ![Standarduser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Standarduser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Standarduser)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/22 "2012-04-18T17:52:00Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > As suggested above, a common pot and plenty of spoons was the norm in much of ancient, Medieval and later Europe. However, individual wooden plates were common, too, often required on festive occasions. And in some regions, individual wooden plates were standard practise. > > Is this GQ or what? For the past couple thousand years, plates have been made by lathe from axe-hewn blocks of wood such as oak and maple by professional woodturners. There was no need to varnish turned hardwood plates, which were anything but rough-cut. A plain wooden vessel is surprisingly hygienic, due to bacteria-killing chemical properties in the wood as well as its porosity, which dries out residual moisture and bacteria. Bowls made from burls, requiring only a hatchet and a crooked knife to make, were common among the poor folk, and were exactly ‘pieces of wood found in the forest that would work as a plate’, after some late-night whittling. You got me confused again… ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/23 "2012-04-19T17:37:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’ve read that the mediaeval European diet was very meat heavy, not least because it stayed fresh until you killed the animal, and stored grain attracted rats, fleas, and the plague. Unless you’re talking about the rich/ noble class (who were the ones who left records, true, but only were a small part of total population), I doubt that. For centuries, the common peasant would eat gruel, grain mush, beans and similar. Raising animals like pigs or chickens was too expensive for small farmers; and wild animals in the forest (wild boars, deer) belonged to the noble class (c.f. Robin Hood hunting in the royal forest). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/24 "2012-04-19T17:44:36Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Unless you’re talking about the rich/ noble class (who were the ones who left records, true, but only were a small part of total population), I doubt that. For centuries, the common peasant would eat gruel, grain mush, beans and similar. Raising animals like pigs or chickens was too expensive for small farmers Which is exactly the myth that was supposedly being debunked. Unfortunately, I can no longer remember the source. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/25 "2012-04-19T17:48:31Z")
The story of “[The old man/ grandfather and his grandson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Man_and_his_Grandson)” was already old when the Brothers Grimm wrote it down in 1850, and there the wooden bowl is described as cheaper than the broken (clay or porcelain) bowl. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/26 "2012-04-19T17:50:01Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Which is exactly the myth that was supposedly being debunked. Unfortunately, I can no longer remember the source. I would be rather interested, given that there were regular famines sweeping through Europe even after the Medieval ages. The problem was less that stored grain attracted rats but rather that there wasn’t enough grain to store in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Standarduser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Standarduser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Standarduser)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/27 "2012-04-19T19:12:46Z")
Is there any reason to why picking a bark out of the woods and polishing it is not preferred over stale bread? What about nomadic communities that relied on milk and meat products and didnt always have access to bread? ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/28 "2012-04-19T19:38:48Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Earlier than wooden plates were of course clay bowels… Um…an enema may be in order… > [@](#): > > … and little bowels you scooped your share out of with … :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/29 "2012-04-19T20:06:56Z")
Yeah, is there a cite for stale bread being a regular, everyday, plate for non-nobility? (I’d accept, say, monks, as non-nobility, as well as peasants and artisans). I mean, if just getting enough porridge to eat everyday is a struggle, how am I going to afford to buy (more expensive) bread for every meal? When a single wooden bowl has to be cheaper than a year’s worth of bread plates. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/30 "2012-04-19T20:10:58Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Yeah, is there a cite for stale bread being a regular, everyday, plate for non-nobility? (I’d accept, say, monks, as non-nobility, as well as peasants and artisans). I mean, if just getting enough porridge to eat everyday is a struggle, how am I going to afford to buy (more expensive) bread for every meal? When a single wooden bowl has to be cheaper than a year’s worth of bread plates. I saw it in a documentary about food in the court of Henry VIII hosted by Stephen Fry. They ate the trenchers. They were going to eat them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/31 "2012-04-19T22:56:04Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > As suggested above, a common pot and plenty of spoons was the norm in much of ancient, Medieval and later Europe. . . . A common pot/bowl and bits of bread was also common. There is a discription of a dainty woman who never dipped into the bowl so deeply that the food touched her fingers. As to the trenchers being stale, fresh bread has little or no stiffness. You can pull it apart, but it takes a day or two for it to get firm enough to cut easily, especially if you are cutting multiple loaves and have no time to dawdle. It isn’t stale so much as it’s had time to stiffen a bit. I once worked in a little cafe that specialized in crepes. They also served French Onion Soup. We had to remember to put a few baguettes aside for the next days bread rounds. Fresh bread wouldn’t work well for that purpose. I assume it’s the same thing with trenchers. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/32 "2012-04-20T03:41:27Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Unless you’re talking about the rich/ noble class (who were the ones who left records, true, but only were a small part of total population), I doubt that. For centuries, the common peasant would eat gruel, grain mush, beans and similar. Raising animals like pigs or chickens was too expensive for small farmers; and wild animals in the forest (wild boars, deer) belonged to the noble class (c.f. Robin Hood hunting in the royal forest). The thing about grain is that once you harvest it and store it, it doesn’t require much upkeep. Yes, you have to try to keep the varmints out of it, and have to try to keep it dry and fresh. However, if you want meat, not only do you have to keep the animal, but you have to keep the animal’s food…which is generally grain with some veggies mixed in. So you have to grow a lot of grain and veggies either way. And then you get to feed that stuff to your animals, muck them out, and generally keep them in decent shape until you slaughter them. And you can’t slaughter the big animals unless you have a large number of people to feed, or until the temperature is going to be cold enough to keep the meat from going completely bad. Yes, you can brine or pickle or smoke meat, but you STILL need to do this in cold weather. So most of the time, you’re gonna feed those animals and they aren’t going to be producing meat. Cows, of course, will give milk, sheep will give wool, goats will give milk and fiber, and all of them will be slaughtered for meat when they get culled as babies, or when they are no longer profitable. Chickens will give eggs, and they are small enough for one family to completely consume at one meal, and possibly the family will need two or even three chickens for a meal. Chickens weren’t considered to be a cheap protein source, but a treat reserved for Sunday or special occasions. And chickens are fairly easy and cheap to raise, compared to other animals. It takes a LOT of grain to raise meat. And, of course, for most people hunting wasn’t an option in Europe, as the game belonged to the King or the nobles. In the US, it used to be pretty common for men to go hunting in the winter, not only because the farm needed less work, but in order to preserve the meat. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/33 "2012-04-20T10:49:50Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > As to the trenchers being stale, fresh bread has little or no stiffness. You can pull it apart, but it takes a day or two for it to get firm enough to cut easily… Note that this refers to soft-crust bread, not to hard-crust bread such as baguettes or sourdough. The soft-crust varieties are called _pan bimbo_ in Spanish after the Mexican company which introduced us to them; according to their webpage they went into business in 1945, way after the Middle Ages. During these, soft-crust bread was as unknown around the Mediterranean coast as _serrano_ in Scandinavia. If a baguette is too soft to cut properly, it’s not cooked right. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/34 "2012-04-20T12:02:22Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#): > > Wood plates were expensive, whereas last week’s bread is cheap. > > As for what you ate with, spoons were starting to catch on, but knives were the primary utensil. Forks were thought to be (ugh!) Italian, which then, at least, was an insult, and they didn’t really catch on in England until the late 17th century. Although forks did not catch on until later they weren’t unknown at the end of the 16th century. See [here](http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/shakespeares-restless-world/programmes/snackingthroughshakespeare/)for an example found in the Rose Theatre from Shakespeare’s day. Taken to the threatre by some rich patron with advanced ideas to eat his threatre snacks but dropped and lost amongst the groundlings! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/35 "2012-04-20T12:15:11Z")
Yeah, who the hell would eat their[food off of bread](https://www.google.com/search?q=soup+bread+bowl&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvnse&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CFKRT5DGAaeZ6AHIvJyMBA&ved=0CEMQsAQ&biw=1252&bih=548&sei=DVKRT7PzJ8f06AHI_YCXBA)? Just like bread bowls of today, you end up with more, tastier food. If you’re rich enough that you don’t need more food, you toss the gravy soaked/veggie juice/meat flecked bread into a big sack and take it out to the kitchen gate or to the church for distribution to the poor, who will be more than happy to get some protein and vitamins, as well as fill their bellies. I really don’t understand why this is such a bizarre concept. Is it the “stale” thing that’s the hang-up? Well, before modern preservatives, salt was the only thing preserving bread, and that doesn’t really guard against drying out, so almost all the bread eaten was “stale” to some degree. In the case of trenchers, they were baked to be hard, so that they could soak up gravy and such without turning to mush. “Stale” wasn’t a bug, it was a feature! ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/36 "2012-04-20T12:28:15Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yeah, who the hell would eat their[food off of bread](https://www.google.com/search?q=soup+bread+bowl&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvnse&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CFKRT5DGAaeZ6AHIvJyMBA&ved=0CEMQsAQ&biw=1252&bih=548&sei=DVKRT7PzJ8f06AHI_YCXBA)? I thought at first you would link to that part in the ancient epos (I think the Aeneid?) where at one point a dire prediction is made that they will come into such bad cirucmstances that they will eat their plates. Some time later, the company lands at a small island and brings the food from the ships up for a nice picknick. But because they don’t want to carry too much, they don’t bring the whole kitchen sink, just the food and some flour, and bake flat bread (like Pita today) to use as plates. When they’ve eaten the food and are still a bit hungry, they eat the bread also, and the son of the main hero jokingly calls “Look, we’re eating our plates!” The whole group laughs and is very relieved that the prediction comes true in such a harmless way. > [@](#): > > I really don’t understand why this is such a bizarre concept. Is it the “stale” thing that’s the hang-up? Well, before modern preservatives, salt was the only thing preserving bread, and that doesn’t really guard against drying out, so almost all the bread eaten was “stale” to some degree. In the case of trenchers, they were baked to be hard, so that they could soak up gravy and such without turning to mush. “Stale” wasn’t a bug, it was a feature! In the 19th century, for remote villages, it was still common to bake bread only once a week/ month/ year, because heating the oven used a lot of wood and it was a lot of work. So people baked “Farmers bread” (Bauernbrot) with sourdough and a hard crust, that would turn hard but not spoil for months or even years. Old people had trouble with it of course, hence you broke the bread into pieces into your coffee/ milk soup to soften it up. (In Heidi its mentioned that the old grandma without teeth wishes for soft white rolls instead of the usual hard grey bread, so Heidi in the city saves them - but soft rolls still turn hard after several weeks…) And in the medieval ages, many cities had dedicated bakers to which the housewives brought their dough for baking - to prevent the spread of fire from everybody having their own baking oven (different from a heating oven). So bread would not be baked fresh every day back then, either. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/37 "2012-04-20T12:43:28Z")
In the Aeneid, they do eat their trenchers. While it \*is \*a sign of how hungry they are, it’s also a sign that their journeying is done, because that place where they eat their trenchers is the place where they will found their new home. So it’s kind of a good news/bad news scenario. > [@](#): > > Beneath a shady tree, the hero spread > His table on the turf, with cakes of bread; > And, with his chiefs, on forest fruits he fed. > They sate; and, (not without the god’s command,) > Their homely fare dispatch’d, the hungry band > Invade their trenchers next, and soon devour, > To mend the scanty meal, their cakes of flour. > Ascanius this observ’d, and smiling said: > “See, we devour the plates on which we fed.” > The speech had omen, that the Trojan race > Should find repose, and this the time and place. > Aeneas took the word, and thus replies, > Confessing fate with wonder in his eyes: > "All hail, O earth! all hail, my household gods! > Behold the destin’d place of your abodes! > For thus Anchises prophesied of old, > And this our fatal place of rest foretold: > ‘When, on a foreign shore, instead of meat, > By famine forc’d, your trenchers you shall eat, > Then ease your weary Trojans will attend, > And the long labors of your voyage end. > Remember on that happy coast to build, > And with a trench inclose the fruitful field.’ > This was that famine, this the fatal place > Which ends the wand’ring of our exil’d race. > **[The Internet Classics Archive | The Aeneid by Virgil](http://classics.mit.edu/Virgil/aeneid.7.vii.html)** > > The Aeneid by Virgil, part of the Internet Classics Archive ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061/38 "2012-11-27T14:03:21Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Earlier than wooden plates were of course clay bowels - one big pot to cook the stew/ grain mush/ soup, and little bowels you scooped your share out of with (and wooden spoons can be carved from left-over wood). Those can be found thousands of years back. Wooden plates predate clay bowls or ceramics. Early Mesolithic (\<11 000-year-old) archaeological sites in Northern Germany, Central Russia etc. contain fragments of wooden bowls, plates and spoons. Ceramics first reached these parts of the world not until some 7 - 8 000 years ago, in the Early Neolithic period. In most other areas, evidence of early wooden ware is non-existent, but everywhere pottery is adopted so late that wood (or basketry) must have predated it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-tableware-was-used-before-the-renaissance-period/619061.md?page=1)