# What the english translation of the french bird names "hibou" and "chouette" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 22, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351 "2005-06-22T13:24:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/41 "2005-06-22T21:48:15Z")
> [@Hello Again](#): > > A sea? as in the latin, “mare imbrium” (The Sea of Showers) on the moon. > > The odd thing is, I can only think of three bodies of water to which I would apply “sea” – The Mediaterranean Sea (which is sometimes also called by ocean), The Black Sea, and the Caspian Sea. > > I don’t know why the Great Lakes are called Lakes while the Black Sea is a Sea. Perhaps the first people to encounter and name them did not know how large they were. Lakes are often considered to be large freshwater bodies. “Seas” are large bodies of salt water, usually enclosed or semi-enclosed by land. That is why the Caspian and Aral Seas are called that, even though technically they they are salt lakes. Why would you not consider the Caribbean Sea, North Sea, Baltic Sea, Red Sea, Bering Sea, Sea of Japan, or South China Sea to be seas? And I have never heard anybody refer to the Mediterranean Ocean. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/42 "2005-06-22T22:57:24Z")
I don’t know that many people call it the Carribean sea… I have heard it called the Carribean Ocean but more often, simply the Carribean. Your other examples are good ones (one I just didn’t think of off the top of my head) and it just goes to show how wierd English is because some of those we call “sea” are enclosed and some are not. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/43 "2005-06-22T23:04:28Z")
> [@Hello Again](#): > > I don’t know that many people call it the Carribean sea… I have heard it called the Carribean Ocean but more often, simply the Carribean. It’s universally called the Caribbean Sea - look at any Atlas. I live not very far from it, and its always called that (_Mar Caribe_ in Spanish). It is never (correctly) called the Caribbean Ocean, because it is a sea, not an ocean. Oceans are the largest bodies of water on the planet; the only bodies normally called oceans are the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, Arctic, and sometimes the Antarctic. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/44 "2005-06-22T23:34:20Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Getting back to owls, in Canada there are fairly standardized references for bird names. Check out the Grand Dictionnaire terminologique, run by the Office québécois de la langue française: [http://www.granddictionnaire.com/](http://www.granddictionnaire.com/) . That is true, but personally I’ve never learned the difference between a _hibou_ and a _chouette_. Actually, I thank **clairobscur** for starting this thread and fighting _my_ ignorance. I would probably have called any night bird a _hibou_ (except for the _harfang des neiges_, which is quite recognizable and well-known), and I think most people I know would do the same. > [@](#): > > I can’t find **Hamish** ’s copy of _Harry Potter à l’école des sorciers_, so I can only note for the present that Google turns up both “Hedwig la chouette” and “Hedwig le harfang,” but with more for “chouette.” I read the second Harry Potter book in French once, and if I remember correctly, Hedwig was called a _chouette_. I certainly don’t remember her being called a _harfang_. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/45 "2005-06-23T00:54:35Z")
If **clairobscur** doesn’t object, I’d like to ask a question (while the ornithologists and francophones are gathered round) that is in the same vein as his OP. Just like _l’hibou_ and _la chouette_ both translate as “owl”, there are two words in French for the bird that English speakers call a “seagull”: _le goéland_ and _la mouette_. For example, the book [Jonathan Livingston Seagull](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380012863/104-9877310-4377508) is called [Jonathan Livingston le goéland](http://www.fnac.com/1502790/rcwwwa/Jonathan-Livingston-le-goeland-Richard-Bach.html) in French, whereas Chekhov’s play known in English as [The Seagull](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/057119270X/104-9877310-4377508) is [La Mouette](http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/225303777X/402-5846032-5076130) in French (by **T** chekhov, _bien sur_!). Are _goélands_ and _mouettes_ differentiated in children’s picture books in France or Quebec, like _hiboux_ and _chouette_s? Are there different cultural implications, like one being “good” and another “evil” (as **clairobscur** mentioned)? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/46 "2005-06-23T01:08:54Z")
Concerning the mouette/goeland : As far as I know, there isn’t any widely known difference in representation between mouettes and goelands. I’ not aware of any particuler belief about either, but actually, but it of course doesn’t mean they couldn’t exist. Personnally, I would be unable to tell them apart. Though I know both words, I never knew what was the difference. ---
**Author:** ![La\_Llorona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@La\_Llorona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/La_Llorona)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/47 "2005-06-23T01:18:47Z")
::rummages around for HP a l’ecole des sorciers:: I only skimmed the beginning parts where Harry is wandering around Diagon Alley and owl-buying, but it seems that owls-in-general are referred to as hiboux, whereas Hedwig(e!) herself is referred to as a chouette (because of her species?). Harry’s Hogwarts letter states that students may bring > [@](#): > > un hibou OU un chat OU un crapaud When Harry buys Hedwig, we find the following passage: > [@](#): > > Harry sortit du magasin de hiboux avec une grande cage a l’interieur de laquelle une magnifique chouette aux plumes blanches comme la neige dormait paisaiblement, la tete sous l’aile. And another bit pertaining to owls for your reading pleasure: > [@](#): > > Harry restait donc dans sa chambre en compagnie de sa chouette qu’il avait baptisee Hedwige, un nom trouve dans son _Histoire de la magie_. Cute book, btw, and definitely worth reading, if only to giggle over the Chocogrenouilles, Poudlard, and Drago Malefoy. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/48 "2005-06-23T02:17:07Z")
> [@Antonius Block](#): > > Just like _l’hibou_ and _la chouette_ both translate as “owl”, there are two words in French for the bird that English speakers call a “seagull”: _le goéland_ and _la mouette_. As far as I can tell from the species list, the larger, heavier species of gulls are called _goelands_, while the smaller, more delicate species are called _mouettes_. Both terms are used to refer to species in the genus _Larus_ – all _goelands_ belong to this genus, while \*mouettes \* include species in _Larus_ as well as other genera. Most, but not all, _mouettes_ have black heads, while all _goelands_ have white heads. Most terns are called _sternes,_ but some are called _guifettes_ or _noddis_. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/49 "2005-06-23T03:02:37Z")
> [@Antonius Block](#): > > Just like _l’hibou_ and _la chouette_ both translate as “owl”, there are two words in French for the bird that English speakers call a “seagull”: _le goéland_ and _la mouette_. Nitpick: it’s _le hibou_. The “h” in the word is “aspired”, which means that we cannot drop the “e” in the article, and also means that the word is probably of Germanic origin. As for _goélands_ vs. _mouettes_, I didn’t know the difference either, but I checked in a [dictionary](http://francois.gannaz.free.fr/Littre/xmlittre.php?requete=mouette) on the Web and it seems that _goélands_ are simply bigger birds than _mouettes_. (And to confuse things they use the orthography _goëland_.) That’s pretty much what **Colibri** was saying. Personally, I usually use _mouette_ to refer to a seagull, and around here most of them have a white head. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/50 "2005-06-23T03:35:16Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Perhaps, but what is _chouette_ supposed to be a diminutive of? Apparently, the word “chouette” comes from the old French word for its cry: “choeter” (in modern French, _la chouette chuinte_). [cite](http://cyrille.deliry.free.fr//birds/kia.html#d) If I’m reading this right, the word seems to derive from a Gaulish onomatopoeia _kaw-_, which gives rise to the English word “chough” (related to the crow), and _chevêche_ (another kind of owl, via Low Latin _cavannus_). If you’re wondering, “chouette” in the sense of “cool” apparently comes from “choeter” with a slang sense of “to flirt.” _Hibou_ apparently comes from Norman “houbou,” a deformation of Latin “bubo,” in turn from “ululare,” an onomatopoeic word meaning to wail. English “owl” comes from the Germanic “ule,” and I don’t know if ule and ululare are related or if they are just imitating the same sound. “Harfang” appears to be a Swedish word originally. FWIW, ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/51 "2005-06-23T03:50:10Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > _Hibou_ apparently comes from Norman “houbou,” a deformation of Latin “bubo,” in turn from “ululare,” an onomatopoeic word meaning to wail. Interesting. Oddly, Spanish _buho_ reverses the consonants of the French version. The Latin _Bubo_ is the scientific name of the large Eagle-Owls. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/52 "2005-06-23T04:05:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I suspect that most generalized comparisons about languages would not stand up to very serious scrutiny. > > IF there is a serious distinction made along the lines that Northern Piper outlined, my wild assed guess would be that English has, in the last 300 years, been affected by the broad sweep of English-speaking colonization together with expanded literacy. People tend to pick up words in books and apply them to local phenomena, unaware that the same phenomena would have had a separate word among the original speakers. (We see a little bit of this between American English and British English.) **tom** , I’ve always assumed that the difference actually traces back to the divergence between germanic and romance languages. In germanic languages, words tend to be differentiated by adding on new words. German does this much more than English does, creating long German compound words, but English is still a germanic language, all the vocabulary accretions notwithstanding, and the tendancy is more to use adjectives to differentiate. French, on the other hand, derive from Latin, where the passion for precision tends to specific, unique words. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Not to derail my own thread, but generally, it’s the reverse argument that I read here (english has a largest vocabulary and all that…). Though I don’t buy in the latter argument, I’m not convinced the former is true, either… The estimates I’ve seen indicates that English does have a larger vocabulary than most other languages, but I don’t think that’s relevant to the point I’m making. What I’m saying is that the way English constructs words, either “native” or “borrowed”, tends to be more along the germanic line of building words than unique words. As for more examples, the ones I’m most familiar with come from the legal area. For example, the two versions of section 8 / article 8 of the [Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms](http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html#juridiques) / [Charte canadienne des droits et libertés](http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/const_fr.html) reads: > [@](#): > > **_Search or seizure_ > 8.** Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure. > > **_Fouilles, perquisitions ou saisies_ > 8.** Chacun a droit à la protection contre les fouilles, les perquisitions ou les saisies abusives. Now, each are equally authoritative, so why does the English version only use two words, while the French uses three? “Seizure” and “saisie” are much the same, but why is “search” used in English, and “fouilles” and “perquisitions” used in French? The answer is that the two French words are two different types of searches: “fouilles” refers to searches of “meubles” (like desks or briefcase or cars, or even of the person), while “perquisitions” refers to searches of “immeubles” - houses and other buildings. The drafters of the Charter wanted to make sure that s. 8 applied to all types of searches, and so found it necessary to include both types of searches in the French version. So in French, by using either “fouilles” or “perquisitions” in a sentence, you can indicate with one word exactly what type of search it was, which may carry legal significance. In English, we would use adjectives or adjectival phrases to make that distinction, for example a “body search”, an “auto search” or a “dwelling-place search”. I remember reading about other examples in my law-French training books but they’re at my office - I’ll see if I can dig them up. **clairobscur** , my impression is that French is by far the more precise language - if you have plenty of time to work on a particular piece of writing, like a section of a statute, the French version tends to be shorter and more compact - I’ve noticed that many times when looking at our federal statutes, which are printed with the French and the English side by side - the French version of a section/article is usually much more compact, because it takes more words to be precise in English. But, if you’re writing a more descriptive or discursive piece, where it’s general concepts that you’re trying to get across rather than an exact meaning, the English tends to be shorter - for example, in judgments of our Supreme Court and Federal Court of Appeal, which are published in both languages, side-by-side. There, the English paragraphs tend to be shorter than the French paragraphs. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/53 "2005-06-23T10:10:40Z")
Thanks for your input regarding the goéland/mouette distinctions, **clairobscur** , **Colibri** , and **severus**. I’m rather relieved to find out that there are not differences that would be obvious to an educated (but not bird-nerd!) native francophone, since I tend to use both words when referring to what I call a “seagull”. > [@severus](#): > > Nitpick: it’s _le hibou_. Yes, thanks. :smack: (Actually, my fingers seemed to hesitate at typing _l’hibou_. After posting, I had to go out to run some errands and it started to nag at me – as did my recollection of seeing _goëland_ with the diaresis – but not enough to rush back to the computer and make a correction!) I liked your [dictionary](http://francois.gannaz.free.fr/Littre/xmlittre.php?requete=mouette) link, **severus** , whose second paragraph gives the handy rule of thumb that if it’s bigger than a duck it’s a _goëland_, and if it’s smaller than a duck it’s a _mouette_. [And, naturally, we know from [Monty Python and the Holy Grail](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/) that if it weighs the **same** as a duck it’s neither a _goëland_ nor a _mouette_, but a witch!] ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/54 "2005-06-23T14:48:55Z")
> [@Antonius Block](#): > > I liked your [dictionary](http://francois.gannaz.free.fr/Littre/xmlittre.php?requete=mouette) link, **severus** , whose second paragraph gives the handy rule of thumb that if it’s bigger than a duck it’s a _goëland_, and if it’s smaller than a duck it’s a _mouette_. Ah, but what _kind_ of duck? A _canard, sarcelle, fuligule, eider, macreuse, harelde, garrot, harle,_ or _erismature?_🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351/55 "2005-06-24T06:41:12Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Perhaps, but what is _chouette_ supposed to be a diminutive of? Nothing, actually - it simply has the form of a diminutive, so assumed the function of one. Anyway, round those parts, particularly Belgium, they spoke French slightly differently to the standards set by l’Academie Francaise. A local dialect, if you will. I don’t know if they still do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-english-translation-of-the-french-bird-names-hibou-and-chouette/309351.md?page=2)