# What the fuck is going on at the New York Times?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2020, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038 "2020-06-04T12:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/141 "2020-06-06T10:24:08Z")
That’s not exactly abnormal for op-eds. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/142 "2020-06-06T11:01:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What concerns me more is that we’ve got a new generation of “journalists” who want to turn their employers into left-wing propaganda outlets. And this is happening to traditionally liberal outlets, not conservative ones. It’s not just the NY Times. On the same day the Times controversy occurred, there were problems at the Philly Inquirer, the Intercept, and at Vox. A lot of far left journalists trying to get a lot of moderate left journalists and editors fired. Arguably worse? It doesn’t work. The whacked-out oppressive ideas get out there anyway and find an audience, many of whom are in the mainstream. I’m not saying that we should print the lunatic ravings of 9/11 truthers, neo-nazis, communists, anarchists, or other fringes, most of whom are psychologically disturbed to one extent or another. But again, this isn’t an example of that. Cotton is a republican senator, who is going to find a way to get his message out to the mainstream one way or another. We should be listening to the message, and if we can get it through a mainstream paper, where a wide variety of people can read it, respond (or at least react), so much the better. I read the editorial, and I disagree with it, but it was civil, well-written, and concise. Senator Cotton is a very articulate man. I came away from it with a better understanding of how our opponents (not enemies) think. Don’t you think that’s worth _something_? Oh, and as has been already pointed out in this thread, he didn’t say or mean half the things you’re saying he did. It goes back to what I typed above: Know. Your. Opponent. And if you don’t know, learn. If you spent half the time dissecting the actual arguments that you do on dissecting the NYT for printing this (and like people who vote for Trump, the fact you might disagree has nothing to do with the fact that they are perfectly within their rights to do so), you would stand a much better shot this November. ---
**Author:** ![JimNightshade](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jimnightshade/32/3354_2.png) [@JimNightshade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimNightshade)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/143 "2020-06-06T12:37:05Z")
> **[If The NY Times Doesn't Publish My OpEd On Why James Bennet Is An Incompetent...](https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/05/if-ny-times-doesnt-publish-my-oped-why-james-bennet-is-incompetent-dweeb-it-must-hate-free-speech/)** > > Buckle up, because this one is going to be quite the long road trip, and I hope you won’t rush to the comments without joining me on the entire journey first. But if you want a sense of where… ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/144 "2020-06-06T13:10:39Z")
“Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer” ~ Sun Tzu. I hate what’s going on, but it does appear that people like Cotton and Trump are enemies of the United States. Oh, they don’t think so, but they simply are. Trump has skated on the line of treason and extorted allies for his and a hostile countries gain. Obstructed justice, fires anyone that dares to disagree with him. That’s the very short list of the crap Trump has done. To him, that’s just normal business. Like a toddler, he just can’t understand why he can’t have his way. If NBC had not shut down ‘The Apprentice’ we wouldn’t be in this mess. That’s the amount of ‘dedication’ to country Trump has. He just wants attention. And now, he has it in spades. With SDNY chomping at the bit, it may not turn out so well for him. That’s one of the reasons that Trump is so desperate to remain President. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/145 "2020-06-06T15:06:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But what was the stupidest thing of all? The topic of the editorial wasn’t even Cotton’s idea. Cotton pitched a story. The New York Times op-ed team went back to Cotton and pitched instead that he focused on the “no quarter” [tweets about imposing martial law.](https://twitter.com/moorehn/status/1268961802907521026) > > This wasn’t an “opposing editorial.” This was pitched by the New York Times staff. That is what “Heidi N. Moore”, the name on a Twitter account, attributes to an unnamed and unverified “source”. I’m skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/146 "2020-06-06T16:20:11Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > That is what “Heidi N. Moore”, the name on a Twitter account, attributes to an unnamed and unverified “source”. I’m skeptical. …Heidi N. Moore is the verified twitter account of Heidi N. Moore, former New York bureau chief and Wall Street correspondent for Marketplace, former Finance & Economics Editor for the US Guardian. Its very common for journalists to have “unnammed sources” and I have no idea why you’ve used “scare quotes” around a verified persons real name. Cotton is on record that changes were suggested by the [NYT](https://twitter.com/TomCottonAR/status/1268890264279580672). Its been [reported](https://twitter.com/burgessev/status/1268896833134301187)by other [sources](https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/tom-cotton-new-york-times-op-ed-inside-story/). All verifiable with only a few minutes of googling. So what is it you are skeptical about? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/147 "2020-06-06T18:27:40Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Again, J.S. Mill: \*“Let’s keep our minds open by all means, as long as that means keeping our sense of perspective and seeking an understanding of the forces that mold the world. But don’t keep your minds so open that your brains fall out! There are still things in this world that are true and things which are false; acts which are right and acts which are wrong, even if there are statesmen who hide their designs under the cloak of high-sounding phrases.” \* -Walter Kotschnig (cited from Garry Kasparov on Twitter) Lecture at Smith College, November 8th, 1939 p.s. This quote is attributed to multiple sources. It might not be that original, but it’s appropriate in this case, I think. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/148 "2020-06-06T18:42:29Z")
NYT gave a platform to an Op-Ed by a GOP conspiracy theory nitwit. Reasonable people can disagree whether giving him the opportunity to spout his inanity was good for exposing him for the asshole that he is, or bad because it provided his views oxygen they didn’t deserve. Nevertheless, his opinion encountered criticism that it richly deserved, and that could only be a good thing, IMO. We came to learn that the NYT appears to have solicited his opinion and suggested a topic. This seems to be in large part what they are being taken to task for. Not sure why. Hosted guest views are a staple of generating 24 hour news media content. As \*\*k9bfriender \*\*mentioned up thread, if he’d stated his views at a closed door meeting and a recording was leaked, NYT and other media would be all abuzz exposing the very thing he voluntarily submitted. So instead of just ridiculing Cotton for his idiotic views, the largely progressive voices chose to expose _the real enemy_ - NYT! And have once again rounded up a circular firing squad. That’s just fucking great. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/149 "2020-06-06T19:04:38Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > \*“Let’s keep our minds open by all means, as long as that means keeping our sense of perspective and seeking an understanding of the forces that mold the world. But don’t keep your minds so open that your brains fall out! There are still things in this world that are true and things which are false; acts which are right and acts which are wrong, even if there are statesmen who hide their designs under the cloak of high-sounding phrases.” \* > > -Walter Kotschnig (cited from Garry Kasparov on Twitter) > Lecture at Smith College, November 8th, 1939 > > p.s. This quote is attributed to multiple sources. It might not be that original, but it’s appropriate in this case, I think. And where in that quote did Mr. Kotschnig state that those false things should not be brought out into the open? He was talking about taking absurdities to heart, not making sure that they aren’t heard. In fact, hearing them, reading them, and examining the logical flaws behind them are the most effective way to combat them–if not always the easiest or most pleasant. I mean, this is pretty much the theory behind any self-respecting liberal education. When I was taking a WWII history class in college, I had to read _Mein Kampf_ in the original German. Was my professor wrongly giving a platform to Hitler’s ravings? Did the inclusion of _Mein Kampf_ in the curriculum legitimize Hitler or National Socialism in any way? Did reading that somehow damage my outlook as to the role of various ethnic groups in society? It did the opposite. It forced me to confront unpleasant, offensive viewpoints and formulate logical arguments against it. After 9/11 when the _really_ ugly Muslim stuff began showing up on the web, some people were shocked, but I had run into the same damned logical errors back in the 80s, thanks to reading that book. Where are you and **Trihs** getting the idea that inclusion of a viewpoint in a newspaper or any other medium ipso facto means endorsement or legitimization? That pretty much flies in the face of eight centuries of education theory. We’re not inquisitors. Rooting out and suppressing heresy is not what we do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/150 "2020-06-06T19:54:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > NYT gave a platform to an Op-Ed by a GOP conspiracy theory nitwit. Reasonable people can disagree whether giving him the opportunity to spout his inanity was good for exposing him for the asshole that he is, or bad because it provided his views oxygen they didn’t deserve. Nevertheless, his opinion encountered criticism that it richly deserved, and that could only be a good thing, IMO. > > We came to learn that the NYT appears to have solicited his opinion and suggested a topic. This seems to be in large part what they are being taken to task for. Not sure why. Hosted guest views are a staple of generating 24 hour news media content. As \*\*k9bfriender \*\*mentioned up thread, if he’d stated his views at a closed door meeting and a recording was leaked, NYT and other media would be all abuzz exposing the very thing he voluntarily submitted. > > So instead of just ridiculing Cotton for his idiotic views, the largely progressive voices chose to expose _the real enemy_ - NYT! And have once again rounded up a circular firing squad. > > That’s just fucking great. Reaching out is fine, IMO. But that’s not enough – if he gives them garbage (factually speaking), they should say (diplomatically) “this is garbage because of XYZ and it doesn’t meet our standards”. If he doesn’t want to resubmit, then fine. Or even publish online (but not in the actual paper) what he sent them, with the caveat “this didn’t meet our standards because of XYZ but we feel it’s in the public interest to see it”. Hopefully that’s what they’ll do next time. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/151 "2020-06-06T20:05:52Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > NYT gave a platform to an Op-Ed by a GOP conspiracy theory nitwit. So who else should get that platform? Should Alex Jones get that platform? Steve King? Roy Moore? What if, instead of arguing for military deployments, Cotton were advocating for segregation in schools? Is that fit to print? Should we amplify that kind of message in order to remain faithful to the principle of free speech? Is speech really just speech, and is it appropriate to give ridiculous messages a megaphone? Do you really believe that people are discerning enough to determine which messages are valid and which ones aren’t, and which messages should be acted upon and which ones aren’t? Feel free to call me an elitist, but I don’t. Don’t you find it interesting that so many former generals have gone against their military ethos and instincts and felt compelled to thrust themselves into politics and speak out so forcefully against their former boss and current commander in chief? Do you wonder why? Maybe it’s because they kinda know something we don’t? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > We came to learn that the NYT appears to have solicited his opinion and suggested a topic. This seems to be in large part what they are being taken to task for. Not sure why. Hosted guest views are a staple of generating 24 hour news media content. As \*\*k9bfriender \*\*mentioned up thread, if he’d stated his views at a closed door meeting and a recording was leaked, NYT and other media would be all abuzz exposing the very thing he voluntarily submitted. There is a major difference between a leaked candid conversation and willingly providing the medium to express a voice – doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure that out. Intended or not, having it appear in an op-ed piece gives the impression that the Times treats it as legitimate speech. Whether or not the Times agrees with it or not doesn’t matter. There’s a reason so many journalists at the Times were pissed off about the opinion piece. You have a lawmaker advocating a military response to legitimate protests, and no, the fact that he mentioned looters isn’t much consolation. It’s a dog whistle - and the NY Times blew it for him. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > So instead of just ridiculing Cotton for his idiotic views, the largely progressive voices chose to expose _the real enemy_ - NYT! And have once again rounded up a circular firing squad. > > That’s just fucking great. The NY Times isn’t the real enemy, but they are guilty of really piss poor judgment, and the only alternative is to not care and pretend that their editorial decisions don’t have consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/152 "2020-06-06T20:17:27Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The NY Times isn’t the real enemy, but they are guilty of really piss poor judgment, and the only alternative is to not care and pretend that their editorial decisions don’t have consequences. What consequences, **asahi**? Again, what precedent are you referring to here? When has whatever it is you are fearing (I’m really not even sure what you’re talking about here) actually taken place? > [@](#): > > So who else should get that platform? Should Alex Jones get that platform? Steve King? Roy Moore? Nooooooo . . . I mean, that’s why the New York Times has an editorial board to begin with, right? That editorial board is more than likely staffed with literate, college-educated reading enthusiasts who can use editorial standards, newspaper guidelines, and, presumably, their brains to tell the difference between a republican senator putting forth a controversial but widespread and compelling argument and some halfwit conspiracy theorist who gets his jollies making fun of school shooting victims. Maybe if you took more time to listen to arguments you don’t agree with, _you_ could learn the difference, too. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/153 "2020-06-06T20:19:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Reaching out is fine, IMO. But that’s not enough – if he gives them garbage (factually speaking), they should say (diplomatically) “this is garbage because of XYZ and it doesn’t meet our standards”. If he doesn’t want to resubmit, then fine. Or even publish online (but not in the actual paper) what he sent them, with the caveat “this didn’t meet our standards because of XYZ but we feel it’s in the public interest to see it”. Hopefully that’s what they’ll do next time. If this was the contents of a speech made by Cotton at some function that wasn’t covered by the press and it was later released as a recorded audio/video, how do you think NYT would react? Would they say it does not meet their standards or would they (righly) lambaste Cotton for his idiocy? With respect public awareness of Cotton’s idiology, why is releasing a recorded video okay but publishing an op-ed an insult to journalistic standards? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/154 "2020-06-06T20:22:26Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > If this was the contents of a speech made by Cotton at some function that wasn’t covered by the press and it was later released as a recorded audio/video, how do you think NYT would react? Would they say it does not meet their standards or would they (righly) lambaste Cotton for his idiocy? > > With respect public awareness of Cotton’s idiology, why is releasing a recorded video okay but publishing an op-ed an insult to journalistic standards? It’s the difference between reporting on a racist screed and publishing a racist screed. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/155 "2020-06-06T20:32:23Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > So who else should get that platform? Should Alex Jones get that platform? Steve King? Roy Moore? I think all three of them have had a sufficiently robust public platform. With the exception of King, none are current members of congress (law makers). King is sanctioned and disgraced and his days are numbered. In short, it’s a case by case decision on whether they deserve a platform on NYT. > [@asahi](#): > > What if, instead of arguing for military deployments, Cotton were advocating for segregation in schools? Is that fit to print? Should we amplify that kind of message in order to remain faithful to the principle of free speech? Is speech really just speech, and is it appropriate to give ridiculous messages a megaphone? Do you really believe that people are discerning enough to determine which messages are valid and which ones aren’t, and which messages should be acted upon and which ones aren’t? Feel free to call me an elitist, but I don’t. If Cotton was advocating for the above as a relatively new (to him) political platform, yeah, I want it printed for all to see and hear. That kind of shit should not go unnoticed. > [@asahi](#): > > Don’t you find it interesting that so many former generals have gone against their military ethos and instincts and felt compelled to thrust themselves into politics and speak out so forcefully against their former boss and current commander in chief? Do you wonder why? Maybe it’s because they kinda know something we don’t? I applaud them for doing so. Better late than never. > [@asahi](#): > > There is a major difference between a leaked candid conversation and willingly providing the medium to express a voice – doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure that out. Intended or not, having it appear in an op-ed piece gives the impression that the Times treats it as legitimate speech. Whether or not the Times agrees with it or not doesn’t matter. There’s a reason so many journalists at the Times were pissed off about the opinion piece. You have a lawmaker advocating a military response to legitimate protests, and no, the fact that he mentioned looters isn’t much consolation. It’s a dog whistle - and the NY Times blew it for him. > > The NY Times isn’t the real enemy, but they are guilty of really piss poor judgment, and the only alternative is to not care and pretend that their editorial decisions don’t have consequences. I see it as the NYT exposing him for what he is. And he handed them the self-incriminating evidence. I’ll call them out for being complicit if they continue to give him a voice. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/156 "2020-06-06T20:34:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s the difference between reporting on a racist screed and publishing a racist screed. But they’d have published it either way, no? Did the NYT prevent or discourage criticism of Cotton’s opinion in any way? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/157 "2020-06-06T20:35:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s nonsense. By that logic, nothing could ever be posted in the Pit–you’d be drawing attention to anything bad, and thus be just as bad. You have it exactly backwards there. People post things in the pit to draw attention to them, to make people aware of dangers, pitfalls, or just general stupidity. They do not post in the pit in order to give validation or “normalization” of the stories that they post. Same with the NYTs. They did not “publish” Cotton’s piece in order to validate it, they did so so that people could see it, and either point and laugh, or at least groan and spit. > [@](#): > > What’s different is that he’s reporting on something that already happened, not actively facilitating it. He’s reporting on the news and commenting on it. **The NYT was actively making news.** > > You can go on about how we need to know that these people think these things. Guess what? WE ALREADY DID. The guy had said them on Twitter. And those tweets were widely reported in the same papers that people read who read the NYT. That was never the problem. Who is “we” in this instance. You, me, sure “we”. But does your “we” include the general public sphere? This was more than a tweet. People don’t take tweets seriously. People do take long form opinion articles like that seriously. > [@](#): > > The problem is exactly what Maher did to Yiannopoulos. He was given an unchallenged platform to simply make his full case, uninterrupted. You say that’s bad. So then why are you going after **asahi** for saying that, when the NYT does that, it is also bad? Because it was not an unchallenged platform. I saw right on the front page of the NYT’s website an editorial entitled “Tom Cotton’s Fascist Op-Ed”. That sounds like a challenge to me. > [@](#): > > What bothers me is that, while asahi does have some bad threads, I continue to see people jump on him even in the threads where he’s just saying what most people feel. The NYT themselves agreed they fucked up. And you appear to agree with him on principle. I probably agree with asashi more than I disagree. That does not commit me to either agreeing or disagreeing with him on any particular point in the future. I think the NYT’s realized that they fucked up that they pissed off a bunch of their readers, not that they did anything journalistically wrong. > [@](#): > > But you still have to find a way to make him the bad guy. Why? What’s the point? What the fuck are you talking about? Who and how am I making the bad guy. Is this the infamous BigT scold I’ve always heard about? > [@](#): > > This was wrong of the NYT. Cotton being a senator doesn’t make him better than anyone else, or more worthy of publishing. And nothing should be published without them checking the contents, to see if they’re going to be saying things that they know are untrue. It was very true that Cotton wrote those words. Not sure what else needed fact checking before they published. The fact checking of his words can come in rebuttals. > [@](#): > > It’s a newspaper, and one of high repute at that. They have a duty to tell the truth, and to spread the truth. They have a duty to challenge lies and other things that go against the morality of truth. I think that they did just that. > [@Chingon](#): > > Sorry, but I don’t need to hear the case that Jews need to be pushed into oven to prefer the opinion that Jews shouldn’t be pushed into ovens. They didn’t start there. You don’t need to know that they want to put kids into cages in order to prefer that they didn’t. But are you saying that you would prefer to not even know that they want to put kids in cages? > [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > It’s interesting that you bring up this particular example. It kind of puts me in the mind of the Weimar Republic, where the politics splintered so badly and law and order broke down so thoroughly that a group as crazy as the National Socialists led by an unstable, unrealistic dictator managed to get into office and actually do that to the Jews. It’s not really all that much of a coincidence that contemporary events have fairly direct parallels to the happenings in a particular location of 1930’s Europe. > [@](#): > > I would argue that by the time it gets to the viewpoint of whether or not Jews need to be pushed into the oven that you’re wayyyy past the point where electing a guy from a certain political party is going to make any difference. You’re already either in a dictatorship of some kind or anarchy. The task is to make sure it never gets to that point–and no, it hasn’t gotten to that point yet. Which is why airing an argument that someone wants to push Jews into ovens is much better than hiding the fact that someone wants to push Jews into ovens. > [@](#): > > What John Stuart Mill (one of my favorite philosophers, by the way, and thank you **Slacker** for bringing him up. I’m going to have to pull his works off the shelf sometime this weekend) was getting at is that if you’re going to argue your point, you have to know it thoroughly, both the pros and the cons, and any honest scientist would tell you the same thing. You have to know what you’re wrong about as well as what you’re right about. > > This is the point where you have to go out of your way to look for exactly how your opponent thinks. I’m not talking about the 2020 election. I’m talking about saving representative democracy in general. Senator Cotton and the NYT have both done you a great service in presenting his arguments. When they tell you this, it’s sort of like you’re coaching a high school football team, and a week before the big game, the head coach of the other team drops by your office and offers to show you the playbook. Again, this is why Ann Coulter is one of my favorite columnists. This is your opportunity to see _exactly_ what the other side is thinking. _Then_ you can start making plans on how to counteract it. > > Look, I’m not telling you to leave the echo chamber that this place has become. If you want to contribute another post to the 4,500 and counting about how President Trump pissed you off today, be my guest. If you want to beat up on, like, the last real conservative poster on these boards in a ten-page thread, knock yourself out. Just remember that maybe the reason you guys are so ticked at the world today and mystified when things don’t go your way is that you’ve never really taken time out to get outside your comfort zone. Don’t just look at the enemy’s arguments. Understand them. > > Or . . . stay in the echo chamber. Beats thinking, right? Why do you hate **manson1972** ’s liver? > [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > Meh, he’s a shill. He’s always struck me as that snotty kid who runs for eighth grade school president, takes it way too seriously, and winds up getting kicked out of the race after he’s caught tearing down his rivals’ banners. He’s the comedic equivalent of licking a nine-volt battery. He was funny in the 80’s with observational humor. When he turned political in the 90’s he was still pretty funny, but then, the world was a bright place, and there was a lot to laugh at that was not the kind of laugh you use to keep the noose from tightening further around your neck. When the world turned darker, he just turned into an asshole. > [@enipla](#): > > “Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer” ~ Sun Tzu. > > I hate what’s going on, but it does appear that people like Cotton and Trump are enemies of the United States. Oh, they don’t think so, but they simply are. Trump has skated on the line of treason and extorted allies for his and a hostile countries gain. Obstructed justice, fires anyone that dares to disagree with him. That’s the very short list of the crap Trump has done. To him, that’s just normal business. Like a toddler, he just can’t understand why he can’t have his way. They know that they are enemies of the United States. They have named out nearly 2/3rds of the residents here as their enemies. > [@](#): > > If NBC had not shut down ‘The Apprentice’ we wouldn’t be in this mess. That’s the amount of ‘dedication’ to country Trump has. He just wants attention. And now, he has it in spades. With SDNY chomping at the bit, it may not turn out so well for him. That’s one of the reasons that Trump is so desperate to remain President. I thought the run for presidency was part of a negotiating deal to get more from the apprentice, not because it was shut down. Didn’t it go a season with a different host after he left? ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/158 "2020-06-06T20:42:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Which is why airing an argument that someone wants to push Jews into ovens is much better than hiding the fact that someone wants to push Jews into ovens. Yeah. You do realize I’ve been agreeing with your point here, right? It’s kind of what I’ve been typing through this whole thread? > [@](#): > > Why do you hate **manson1972** ’s liver? That’s the thing about jokes, **k9** : They stop being funny after the second or third time you tell them. Here’s a quick summertime hint from me to you: If you chunk up what I type into five or six word sentences, and just go through it little by little, it’s just like reading a Trump tweet . . . which seems to be more your speed anyway. I’m sorry about your apparent attention deficit issues, but some things cannot be summarized in five or six-word sentences with one-syllable words. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/159 "2020-06-06T20:49:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > But they’d have published it either way, no? No, they wouldn’t. Reporting on and publishing are two different things. Are you really saying that the NYT doing a story on something awful David Duke said is the same as the NYT inviting David Duke to write, and then accepting and publishing that awful thing? If so, that sounds nuts to me. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038/160 "2020-06-06T21:01:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, they wouldn’t. Reporting on and publishing are two different things. > > Are you really saying that the NYT doing a story on something awful David Duke said is the same as the NYT inviting David Duke to write, and then accepting and publishing that awful thing? If so, that sounds nuts to me. Are you really saying that NYT should reject an offer from David Duke to express his platform and only print it if they attending his public speech? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-going-on-at-the-new-york-times/855038.md?page=9)