# What the fuck is wrong with Mexico? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2010, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615 "2010-12-18T08:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/221 "2010-12-30T08:13:38Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Leaving aside the race issue… > > Why does Mexico have such staggering poverty, especially in rural areas? > > Why does Mexico lack basic human needs for many citizens, again especially in rural areas? > > Why are so many Mexicans undereducated? > > Why are so many Mexicans desperate to come to the US? > > You can’t honestly blame all of the above on the big bad neighbor to the north. And please, I’m not really interested in hearing how the US is lacking in XYZ - this thread is about Mexico, not the US. For some reason, everyone seems to forget that Mexico is the 11th richest country in the world — at least by **[GDP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29)**. ( I would still maintain their economy would take a staggering hit if drugs were legalized/crime abolished. ) There’s a slim chance that all the wealth is concentrated in one man’s pockets; but more likely the Mexican ruling class is even more closely knit and avaricious than that of the USA, but feels as strongly as the latter that giving people stuff for free destroys their self-respect and undermines their work-ethic. One minor reason for continued poverty might be the hold that Roman Catholicism has upon the laity there, although not with the civil power which has generally been in a state of antagonism with the Church. Whatever undoubted good it does, it tends to drain wealth from the faithful continuously and has an interest in keeping them uninformed and dutiful. Pleasingly, American leftists welcome the large influx of immigrants for moral reasons despite that fact that massively increasing the number of not that bright hispanic faithful will turn America more conservative and more religious, whereas the rightists oppose the same phenomenon for their own moral reasons in defiance of that — what to them should be welcome — event. Only the most cynical would believe that the Roman Church’s being the biggest supporter of Latin immigration is purposed to increase the number of the faithful in the USA for future income. Mexico could really do with another revolution, but one reason this doesn’t happen, regardless of it having sunk into grim stable democracy and the firepower of the Mexican Armed Forces, is that that big, bad neighbour won’t allow this to happen. Possibly for humanitarian reasons, partly fpor contagious reasons, partly for capitalist exploitation reasons. So, it is \*partly \*your fault… > [@LouisB](#): > > What impelled Mexicans to illegally cross that border for all the long years before the drug cartels were ever heard of? It’s been going on for all my remembered life, at least. There’s only so much mariachi music one man can take. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/222 "2010-12-30T13:35:48Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Pleasingly, American leftists welcome the large influx of immigrants for moral reasons despite that fact that massively increasing the number of **not that bright hispanic** … One racist comment after the next. And right here on a site dedicated to fighting ignorance! ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/223 "2010-12-30T13:41:25Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > One racist comment after the next. And right here on a site dedicated to fighting ignorance! You’re seeing racism where none exists. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/224 "2010-12-30T13:47:29Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > You’re seeing racism where none exists. Yeah right. We need “clean people” to set us straight because we are not that bright. That is the problem with people like yourself. The truth is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/225 "2010-12-30T16:20:23Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > What impelled Mexicans to illegally cross that border for all the long years before the drug cartels were ever heard of? It’s been going on for all my remembered life, at least. As I’ve posted a couple of times before in different threads, the global “free market” is glaringly **un** -free in one respect: mobility of labor. Imagine for example if the UN were to declare that all human beings were citizens of the planet Earth and had a fundamental human right to live anywhere they chose, and that somehow the nations of the world had to allow that. We would see on a global scale what’s happened within countries ever since the beginning of the nineteenth century: a flood of people from the undeveloped areas crowding into the cities. Nationalist and ethnic concerns (not necessarily unfounded) set up barriers to what would otherwise be water seeking it’s own level. For whatever historical or cultural reasons, Latin America did not industrialize as early or as fast as the Anglo north, and so we have an increasingly untenable situation akin to a levee on the verge of breaching. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/226 "2010-12-30T17:36:54Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Yeah right. We need “clean people” to set us straight because we are not that bright. > > That is the problem with people like yourself. The truth is irrelevant. I don’t think its helping that you’re fulfilling the stereotype of the “angry Mexican ranting against the evul Gringos”. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/227 "2010-12-30T17:50:26Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Just out of curiosity, are you still claiming Americans are a race? I never said Americans are a race. I distinctly used the term **Anglo** -Americans, who are both a race and an ethnicity. They consist of the descendents of the British colonists who established a European civilization in North America and the Europeans who later emigrated to North America and assimilated into that culture. You can be an American without being white. You can’t be an Anglo-American without being white. And it is glaringly obvious that CBEscapee has a rabid hatred for Anglo-Americans. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/228 "2010-12-30T18:03:20Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Lets clarify a few things. > > Hatred and racism are 2 distinct things. > > I hate the things some people do. I hate racism > > I don’t hate you. You aren’t worth my consideration. You hate Anglo-Americans. You are the very thing you claim to hate: a racist. But your hatred is always morally justified, isn’t it? :rolleyes: Being “racist” doesn’t necessarily make you an unworthy human being. Not being a progressive, I quite cheerfully accept the fact that no one is entirely free of all racial, ethnic, religious and class prejudice, nor will anyone ever be, and everyone has some group or other whom they absolutely cannot stand. Tribalism, ethnocentrism and xenophobia are not merely learned behaviors which can somehow be done away with. They will always be with us. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/229 "2010-12-30T18:06:28Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > IYou can’t be an Anglo-American without being white. What if there’s, say, just one or two darkies in the woodpile? :o ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/230 "2010-12-30T18:47:00Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > In the first place you linked to an obviously racist site. No surprise there. Browse around on that “racist” site and find out [how Mexico treats illegal aliens](http://www.vdare.com/awall/080409_memo.htm). Clean up your own act before you dare to condemn us. > [@CBEscapee](#): > > Then you try to equate a radical fringe group with legislated racial discrimination in your country. If you are interested in the truth, which is highly doubtful, research how many lynchings of Mexicans have occured in the USA. I’m more interested in the many Americans who have been killed by illegal aliens in crimes ranging from drunk driving to armed robbery. And that “fringe” group, which had the support of Mexican generals and the Mexican government, conducted thirty attacks on American communities. I’m supposed to believe that’s no big deal? > [@CBEscapee](#): > > And in the past few years we have seen a sniper in San Diego kill a young boy from Mexico at the border and recieve just 2 years in jail. A young life ended solely because he was Mexican. Meh. O.J. Simpson got off scot free because a mostly black jury refused to convict him despite overwhelming evidence. Here in Atlanta, a policeman was recently killed by a man who had nineteen previous arrests on his record, many of them for serious charges. Our court system often breaks down badly. > [@CBEscapee](#): > > There was also a case in the eastern part of the USA where several American teenagers beat a young Mexican to death solely becasue of his nationality. The local courts gave them an equally light sentence. And then there was the American rancher near the border killed by a person or persons unknown while going about his business on his own land. American citizens in the border area suffer an ever-growing number of crimes against person and property. Mexican police and military in the employ of drug cartels regularly violate the border and have threatened both border patrols and national guardsmen. Many Americans in the border zone have started carrying firearms with them whenever they leave the house because they no longer feel safe without them. And, as I’ve already said, illegal aliens, most of them Hispanic, commit many serious crimes against American citizens. Any Mexican who doesn’t like the way he’s treated here can simply go home. But my people haven’t got anywhere else to go. This is our home. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/231 "2010-12-30T18:52:12Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > For some reason, everyone seems to forget that Mexico is the 11th richest country in the world [snip] GDP is really only useful for comparing wealth between nations as a whole. It doesn’t factor in costs to trade or transform wealth into actual dollars and sense. There is no real accurate distinction to compare wealth of the average citizen, the best comparison is to use household median incomes, but even that comparison has issues. But, if one nation has twice the household median income of the other, it’s a safe bet to say one is richer than the other. Also, this info is hard to find. So, from a quick scan of the CIA World Factbook, per capita GDP for Mexico is $13200 (84th in world); the US is $46000 (11th) based on the somewhat more precise measurement of Purchasing Power Parity (PPP). > [@Claverhouse](#): > > There’s a slim chance that all the wealth is concentrated in one man’s pockets; but more likely the Mexican ruling class is even more closely knit and avaricious than that of the USA, but feels as strongly as the latter that giving people stuff for free destroys their self-respect and undermines their work-ethic. that and I would also add widespread institutionalized bribery and corruption. > [@Claverhouse](#): > > One minor reason for continued poverty might be the hold that Roman Catholicism has upon the laity there, although not with the civil power which has generally been in a state of antagonism with the Church. I haven’t heard of this theory. Can you please elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/232 "2010-12-30T19:07:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What if there’s, say, just one or two darkies in the woodpile? :o What of it? I have two Cherokee ancestors, and unlike Ward Churchill I have the documents to prove it. But I’ve always self-identified as white, the vast majority of people you see on the street would consider me white, and my ancestry is overwhelmingly Irish, English and French. A real American Indian would just laugh at me if I were so foolish as to claim that I was an Indian, and rightfully so. As my family has been in Georgia since before the Trail of Tears, it’s entirely possible there’s an African or two lurking about unseen in my family tree. The possibility doesn’t bother me a bit. If you want to nitpick about who’s white and who’s not, find somebody else to argue with. I’m not interested. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/233 "2010-12-30T19:19:26Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Yeah right. We need “clean people” to set us straight because we are not that bright. Eh? No, the Mexicans – at least, those in government or officialdom or law enforcement – need “clean people” to set them straight because they’re not **honest.** A short foreign occupation with draconian application of the death penalty for even trivial corruption would do your country a world of good in the long run. But, I can’t think of a single country up to the task. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/234 "2010-12-30T20:16:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Eh? No, the Mexicans – at least, those in government or officialdom or law enforcement – need “clean people” to set them straight because they’re not **honest.** A short foreign occupation with draconian application of the death penalty for even trivial corruption would do your country a world of good in the long run. > > But, I can’t think of a single country up to the task. Undoubtedly. You have Iraq as an example of your abilities as “clean people” fixing the dirty people. Several hundred thousand dead Iraqis later and the place resembles small town USA. Conceit and arrogance will never be lacking when talking about Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/235 "2010-12-30T20:38:36Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Undoubtedly. You have Iraq as an example of your abilities as “clean people” fixing the dirty people. Several hundred thousand dead Iraqis later and the place resembles small town USA. > > Conceit and arrogance will never be lacking when talking about Americans. I am so happy that due to travel and current location I know plenty of Mexican citizens to counterbalance any sort of an impression I would have of Mexico that has been created by your persona on this site. However, to let a little of a response out - I would like to respond your insult of Americans with this little bit: _Incompetence and corruption will never be lacking when talking about the government of Mexico._ I would rather wallow in a well-founded arrogance and conceit, than live in a country where the drug gangs have taken over some towns. Detroit might be a economic nightmare, but it is not ruled by the drug lords. Newark has its issues, but Mayor Corey Booker can still go outside and safely shovel snow. LA has some tough neighborhoods, but I can still drive through without worrying about being kidnapped and held for ransom. Mexico’s issues are much larger than just being next to the United States. Yes, our market provides profits for the drug gangs. However, Mexico’s government corruption and inability to keep the peace in key areas keeps the middle class from developing enough to provide sufficient additional opportunities to the citizens. Add in the animosity towards outside investors, and you have a situation that is not solving itself nor is the solution allowed from the outside. Even the Mexican Army, with generous US support, can’t handle some of the cities: > **[Mexico army's failures hamper drug war](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-dec-29-la-fg-mexico-army-20101230-story.html)** > > Mexico army's failures hamper drug war ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/236 "2010-12-30T21:18:34Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > _Incompetence and corruption will never be lacking when talking about the government of Mexico._ Couldn’t agree more. The problem on this thread isn’t criticism of the government of México. It is when I here racist comments about “clean” people or “not so bright” people. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows these are blatant racist comments. > [@](#): > > I would rather wallow in a well-founded arrogance and conceit, than live in a country where the drug gangs have taken over some towns. Detroit might be a economic nightmare, but it is not ruled by the drug lords. Newark has its issues, but Mayor Corey Booker can still go outside and safely shovel snow. LA has some tough neighborhoods, but I can still drive through without worrying about being kidnapped and held for ransom. As you can in most Mexican cities. I pointed out the the murder rates in our capital are less than in yours. I go about my business in Guadalajara without worry. > [@](#): > > Add in the animosity towards outside investors, This is another comment made without basis and absolutely untrue. Please show me proof that animosity against foreign investment exists. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/237 "2010-12-30T21:42:13Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Yeah right. We need “clean people” to set us straight because we are not that bright. > > That is the problem with people like yourself. The truth is irrelevant. I’m glad you straightened me out on the problems that are so rampant in Mexico. Poverty, corruption, and so forth are all due to people like me to whom the truth is irrelevant. I will find it very difficult to live with the shame of being a people like myself. But I will somehow muddle through and somehow manage to hold my head up without blaming others for my own problems. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/238 "2010-12-30T21:49:19Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I’m glad you straightened me out on the problems that are so rampant in Mexico. Poverty, corruption, and so forth are all due to people like me to whom the truth is irrelevant. > > I will find it very difficult to live with the shame of being a people like myself. But I will somehow muddle through and somehow manage to hold my head up without blaming others for my own problems. We all have our crosses to bear, amiguito. Now if Your Cleanliness would kindly show where I said anything of that nature. I have continuously pointed out ill treatment of Mexicans by people from your country. I have never said that poverty, corruption and so forth are due to people like you. You are attributing false statements to me. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/239 "2010-12-30T21:52:21Z")
Here is a different and far more scholarly interpretation of the Plan de San Diego. Tells a very different story than that on the racist Vdare site. [http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=9739](http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=9739) ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/240 "2010-12-30T21:54:53Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > This is another comment made without basis and absolutely untrue. Please show me proof that animosity against foreign investment exists. Mexican law forbids foreign ownership of many types of companies and forbids percentage ownership of others. We can also talk about the restriction on foreign ownership of property in the restricted zones as well, though I consider private property ownership to be separate from business investment. The fact that you are not aware of any of these restrictions makes we wonder about the rest of your statements. In the interest of reducing total ignorance, I will dredge up some memories from business school and provide a couple of links. Prior to Salinas and the law change in 1993, it was worse, but here are a couple of websites with some information for you: [http://www.mexicolaw.com/LawInfo26.htm](http://www.mexicolaw.com/LawInfo26.htm) [http://www.lectlaw.com/files/int14.htm](http://www.lectlaw.com/files/int14.htm) > [@](#): > > 1. A number of “strategic areas” (e.g., petroleum, electricity, railroads, radioactive minerals, etc.) continue to be exclusively reserved to the government of Mexico, while other important economic activities (e.g., national ground transportation services, retail gasoline sales, non-cable T.V. and radio, development banks, credit unions, etc.) continue to be reserved to Mexican nationals only or to Mexican corporations with an Exclusion of Foreigners Clause. > > 2. Minority foreign ownership, ranging from 10% up to 49%, is allowed in certain economic activities subject to “specific regulations”, without having to obtain a favorable resolution of the National Commission of Foreign Investments. Previously reserved to Mexican nationals, some of these activities include domestic air transportation, cable TV, fishing, insurance, money exchange houses, shipping, railroad related services, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615.md?page=13)