# What the fuck is wrong with Mexico? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2010, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615 "2010-12-18T08:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/61 "2010-12-18T23:24:24Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > How can you assume this? Mexican society (and someone please correct me if I’m misinformed) consists of a large very poor class, a small middle class, and a very small upper/super-rich class. Ordinary people working ordinary jobs, including cops, receive very little for their trouble in the form of wages and salaries. (For an example, see [this article](http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2010/08/25/mexico_state_to_boost_pay_of_state_police/).) It may be cheaper to live south of the border but it isn’t so cheap that the average worker can afford decent housing or the other things workers want for themselves and their children. > > By what logic would the violence stop if there were no demand for illegal drugs? Drug running is merely the opportunity of the moment. If they weren’t the issue there would still be corruption, extortion and kidnapping, and there would still be violence, unless steps are taken to correct the iniquities of the Mexican economy. Yes there would still be criminals and violence. Just like many other countries. But the US is the richest country in the world and the level of violence there is also extremely high. Most of the violence here is fueled by something tangible, greed. Now explain your social phenomenem of school shootings, workplace shootings and serial killers? Obviously it isn’t social inequality. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/62 "2010-12-18T23:56:25Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Yes there would still be criminals and violence. Just like many other countries. But the US is the richest country in the world and the level of violence there is also extremely high. Most of the violence here is fueled by something tangible, greed. Now explain your social phenomenem of school shootings, workplace shootings and serial killers? Obviously it isn’t social inequality. Do you have any other point than “anything US=bad?” This has fuck-all to do with your thesis that the violence in your country is because of our anti-drug laws. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/63 "2010-12-18T23:57:29Z")
Originally Posted by Susanann The silence, and the complacency, of the Mexican citizenry is deafening. > [@LouisB](#): > > Given the choice, would you choose to keep your mouth shut or be murdered, possibly along with all your family? I am an American! …and if a mother and daughter were murdered and dismembered, and a bunch of others too, in my neighborhood, I would not be complacent, and I would not be silent. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/64 "2010-12-19T00:02:50Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Do you have any other point than “anything US=bad?” This has fuck-all to do with your thesis that the violence in your country is because of our anti-drug laws. Nope. That is my point. Your country sucks. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/65 "2010-12-19T00:03:44Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Most of the violence here is fueled by something tangible, greed. Now explain your social phenomenem of school shootings, workplace shootings and serial killers? Obviously it isn’t social inequality. It is peaceful, quiet, and safe in my home, and where I live. I am not afraid of anyone where I live and where I go day by day. An armed American, is the safest person in the world…esp in the last few centuries. \*(As far as school shootings and workplace shootings that make the news, for the most part, they are rare and they mostly only occur in those VERY few places where Americans are not allowed to armed, i.e schools, post office, etc) - ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/66 "2010-12-19T00:05:47Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > Where the hell are _ **The Magnificent Seven** _ when we need them? > . Yeah, that was kinda like what I was thinking. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/67 "2010-12-19T00:06:57Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Originally Posted by Susanann > The silence, and the complacency, of the Mexican citizenry is deafening. > > I am an American! …and if a mother and daughter were murdered and dismembered, and a bunch of others too, in my neighborhood, I would not be complacent, and I would not be silent. The woman recently killed was Mexican. She wasn’t silent either. You don’t have a monopoly on courage. But I will wager you’d be very silent if you were told your still living daughter will be raped and dismembered if you don’t keep quiet about what is going on around you. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/68 "2010-12-19T00:08:10Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Of course it is. Again you base your question on what seems to be a very limited coverage from your sources. Yes, I’m basing my questions on the knowledge I have. What else would you suggest I base my questions on? > [@CBEscapee](#): > > The great majority of the people here are afraid, disgusted and share a feeling of hopelessness. Most wish we could go back to 2006 before Calderón started his incredibly stupid attack on the cartels. Then there was nowhere near the violence you see today. Law enforcement will never eliminate the problem and wasting lives and resources fighting an un-winnable war is extremely foolish. > > Let me ask you a question. If this problem is to be dealt with through law enforcement, why can’t your government stop the drugs from entering your country? You have what seems unlimited resources at your service and well paid law officers immune to bribery. Why do drugs continue to enter in enormous quantities? If what we need is an iron willed leader as has been suggested in this thread to stamp out the corruption and violenece, what grand plan do you need? You make an awful lot of assumptions here. We have many resources, but not unlimited. No one has unlimited resources. I don’t know why you think our law enforcement is immune to bribery. Perhaps less inclined to accept bribes, but certainly not 100% immune. You seem very hostile to Americans, based on your scant replies in this thread. You’ve offered no news or sources of information of your own to counter any ignorance, but you’ve seen fit, in nearly every post, to bemoan what you see as ill-informed opinions coming from north of the border. So again: do you have any information you can link for us, or are you just here to kvetch about what jerks Americans are? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/69 "2010-12-19T00:12:55Z")
Originally Posted by Susanann Those are good ideas!!.. so is the idea of raising a large civilian ex-military volunteer militia and sending them down there to clean them out. In the meantime, my idea, is to build a long secure **wall** along the entire Mexican border, and have our US Army patrol it, enforce it, to at least “contain” these crimes and these criminals to Mexico and keep them and their crimes out of the USA. If we “wall them out” then maybe some Mexican citizens might be forced to deal with it. > [@Keith\_Berry](#): > > I’m fairly sure that the cartels would just find another way to get drugs into the US…we are talking about billions of dollars here. Stamp out American demand for drugs (though I admit, I have no idea how to do that) and it’ll stop coming. Legalize drugs, and they will be so cheap that there wont be enough profit in it. The purpose of the \*\*“WALL” \*\*is not to keep out drugs, but rather it is to keep out Mexicans ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/70 "2010-12-19T00:14:46Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The US GDP is 14.1T, not 1.41T. Ah, my bad. Thanks for catching my typo. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/71 "2010-12-19T00:20:38Z")
Originally Posted by Susanann The silence, and the complacency, of the Mexican citizenry is deafening. I am an American! …and if a mother and daughter were murdered and dismembered, and a bunch of others too, in my neighborhood, I would not be complacent, and I would not be silent. > [@CBEscapee](#): > > The woman recently killed was Mexican. She wasn’t silent either. You don’t have a monopoly on courage. > > But I will wager you’d be very silent if you were told your still living daughter will be raped and dismembered if you don’t keep quiet about what is going on around you. YOu dont understand Americans. We don’t cower, and we do have a monopoly on backing-up our courage. You lost the wager. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/72 "2010-12-19T00:20:52Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Nope. That is my point. Your country sucks. Get over it. Okay. Thanks for participating. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/73 "2010-12-19T00:26:20Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > A lot of us here, myself included, favor total legalization. But we also are very aware it could lead to an even worse fate. Perhaps, but the question is why your people support a government that is ineffective. Calderon asked for a fight, and he got it. If the Mexican people were more up in arms about this course of action, the government would eventually go back to the status quo of looking the other way. That “worked” for years. It was only when someone starting kicking the hornet’s nest that things went sideways. > [@CBEscapee](#): > > There are already many rumors about US military intervention in our country. Your government is actively promoting the involvement of US intelligence officers and military advisors in México. Nonsense. We can’t afford it, nor would it be even remotely possible politically. Despite what you think, the US doesn’t always act like a belligerent bully. > [@CBEscapee](#): > > What do you think the consequences of us unilaterally legalizing drugs would be? Everyone one in the world is aware of how the USA watches out for its “national interests”. You invaded Panamá under the phony pretext of arresting a drug dealer and killed over 3000 innocent Panamanians. So please spare me the lecture on moral superiority. Really? I am being morally superior? You are the one who is blaming the US for your internal problems. I noticed you didn’t actually address any of the points I made in my post; just more whining about the US. How about you explain to me why the drug-related deaths spiked in 2006? Did US demand spike, or was it your government’s great idea to fight the cartels? Tell me why you think Ciudad [Juárez](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciudad_Ju%C3%A1rez) (aka “the most violent zone in the world outside of declared war zones.”) had 2600 murders in 2008, while El Paso (located just across the border) had [18](http://reason.com/archives/2009/07/06/the-el-paso-miracle)? Why has one city asked for UN intervention (I’ll let you guess which one), and the other been one of the safest big cities in the US? “In fact, since the beginning of 2008, there were nearly as many El Pasoans murdered while visiting Juarez (20) than there were murdered in their home town (23).” Their respective populations aren’t too much different. > [@](#): > > By conventional wisdom, El Paso, Texas should be one of the scariest cities in America. In 2007, the city’s poverty rate was a shade over 27 percent, more than twice the national average. Median household income was $35,600, well below the national average of $48,000. El Paso is three-quarters Hispanic, and more than a quarter of its residents are foreign-born. Given that it’s nearly impossible for low-skilled immigrants to work in the United States legitimately, it’s safe to say that a significant percentage of El Paso’s foreign-born population is living here illegally. Is the demand for drugs so different a mere [3.1 miles](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=bR7&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=juarez+mexico&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl) away? Or is it that the cartels know the the US will not tolerate that sort of violence, whereas the Mexican government will in most respects? The cartels, like most criminals, take the path of least resistance. Drugs are just as profitable in El Paso as they are in Juarez. The issue is that setting up, and wreaking havoc in the US is more problematic than it is in Mexico. It’s not solely a demand or prohibition problem like you seem to argue that it is. Either way, I acknowledged we have a part in this, as has the US government. We give you tons of money a support so that you can fix the problem. Yet, we are cruel for not cleaning up the mess you created. The US didn’t allow a fugitive to be elected to the Mexican Congress, we didn’t encourage [collusion](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126906809) between your army and the Sinaloa cartel, nor did we make bribery a [way of life](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A14509-2001Oct30¬Found=true) in Mexico. All those things highlight some of the many problems in your country that has allowed the drug situation to spiral out of control. I don’t think anyone went into this with bad intentions, but the US is far down the list of people you should be blaming. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/74 "2010-12-19T00:31:03Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You seem very hostile to Americans, based on your scant replies in this thread. You’ve offered no news or sources of information of your own to counter any ignorance, but you’ve seen fit, in nearly every post, to bemoan what you see as ill-informed opinions coming from north of the border. So again: do you have any information you can link for us, or are you just here to kvetch about what jerks Americans are? It took a little work to find an English language report of something that was all over the news here. The man responsible for many of the killings in Juárez. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40412398/ns/world\_news-americas/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40412398/ns/world_news-americas/) : ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/75 "2010-12-19T00:38:26Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Nonsense. We can’t afford it, nor would it be even remotely possible politically. Despite what you think, the US doesn’t always act like a belligerent bully. Maybe it is nonsense but that never stopped you in the past. For what it is worth, from an English language site. [http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2010/12/sedena-red-alert-over-possible-us.html](http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2010/12/sedena-red-alert-over-possible-us.html) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/76 "2010-12-19T00:43:07Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > However, the larger problem is that your government has chosen to fight an impossible battle. Isn’t the real problem that the cockroaches got too big to be stepped on? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/77 "2010-12-19T00:44:59Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > YOu dont understand Americans. We don’t cower, and we do have a monopoly on backing-up our courage. > > You lost the wager. Okay I’m sure you believe that, so I’m not calling you a liar, however that is some god damn ignorant bullshit. CIte: a bunch of cowardly little sheep giving up their civil liberties after 9/11. I am a god damn American who actually believes in what you spout, but I’m also a realist. The American reaction to 9/11 showed me what cowards we really are as a nation. It sickens me but it’s the truth. Remember “give up a little freedom for liberty”? What the hell kind of usurperious oxymoron was that? And you know what, if I thought my family was under a very real threat, particularly rape and dismemberment, I probably would be a lot more complacent until I could get them to safety. You would honestly let your daughter be raped and dismembered so you could flap your jaw? Quite frankly it takes quite a lot of gall to wag your finger at impoverished people just trying not to be gunned down from American funded bullets. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/78 "2010-12-19T00:49:28Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Okay. Thanks for participating. :rolleyes: Turn on your sarcasm detector. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/79 "2010-12-19T01:01:17Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Yes there would still be criminals and violence. Just like many other countries. But the US is the richest country in the world and the level of violence there is also extremely high. Most of the violence here is fueled by something tangible, greed. Now explain your social phenomenem of school shootings, workplace shootings and serial killers? Obviously it isn’t social inequality. The violent acts you mention are extraordinary events that are all over the news for weeks after they happen, and don’t represent the level of ongoing chronic violence. Any way you slice it, the violence in Mexican cities where the cartels hold sway is far greater than anything in the United States. For example, in 2009 [Los Angeles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate) reported 8.2 murders per 100K citizens.[sup]1[/sup] Crime statistics from Mexican cities are less available, but from [here](http://www.wonders-world.com/2010/03/top-5-most-dangerous-cities-for-live-of.html), Juarez recently reported an annual murder rate of 130/100K. Now, if Americans’ demand for drugs could be eliminated, the violence might go down, but it certainly wouldn’t disappear, and it would still be a significant problem. The gangs would simply find another way to extort money from the American and Mexican economies, and I’m willing to bet it would be violent. The great demand for drugs is partly a function of our huge population. If, hypothetically, five percent of the American population regularly uses illegal drugs imported from south of the border, that’s still fifteen million users driving the market–and that’s a lot of drugs. Short of instituting the death penalty for possession, I don’t think you’re going eliminate the demand, and it wouldn’t work for addicts in any case. [sup]1[/sup]This is a Wikipedia cite, but I followed the article footnotes to the source. I found it easiest to download the spreadsheet and crunch my own numbers using Excel formulas. If anybody wants my spreadsheet with the formulas, drop me a PM with your email and I’ll be glad to send you a copy. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/80 "2010-12-19T01:01:49Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > . > > YOu dont understand Americans. We don’t cower, and we do have a monopoly on backing-up our courage. > > You lost the wager. Thanks for the laugh!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615.md?page=5)