# What the fuck is wrong with Mexico? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2010, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615 "2010-12-18T08:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/141 "2010-12-23T22:57:36Z")
> [@Backcountry\_Medic](#): > > … even if the US were to legalize all drugs tomorrow, it would require true accountability and changes to the Mexican political culture to ensure that they wouldn’t simply migrate to some other branch of crime. They have already diversified into other illegal areas, although drugs remain the most profitable. Actually, I would assume that legalizing drugs ( all, both hard and soft\* ) whilst laudable, leading to a fast steep price decline — whilst removing the gang’s profits ( who would just move straight to other avenues, since the problem isn’t that drug-dealers are murderous unpleasant thugs but that they will continue to be murderous unpleasant thugs since that is their nature ) — would impact Mexico’s economy to the point of collapse. Simply because so much of the country’s revenue is tied to the export trade. Not that that is an argument against so doing though. > [@](#): > > …and cleaning up the Mexican government to eliminate the endemic corruption there. Maybe the US could bribe enough Mexican politicians to become honest… - Never taken any myself, not even marijuana; but though some of my friends are druggies; the fact that many druggies would die from legalized drugs seems an absurdly false moralistic argument against: they are going to die anyway… if not now, when ? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/142 "2010-12-23T23:38:56Z")
> [@Backcountry\_Medic](#): > > . . . and cleaning up the Mexican government to eliminate the endemic corruption there. Maybe [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisamnes) approach would help. ---
**Author:** ![Brandinho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Brandinho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandinho)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/143 "2010-12-25T20:17:29Z")
The only way this is ever going to stop is if a concerned party with a LOT of resources hired a PMC to go down there and hand the Zetas and the like their own heads on a plate. The problem is that aside from altruism, I don’t see what motivation anybody would have to do this. Mexico’s almost beyond help. ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/144 "2010-12-26T07:46:50Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What the fuck is wrong with Mexico? The US is wrong with Mexico. The US is wrong in keeping drugs illegal; a negligible bane on society if controlled. The US is wrong in allowing free and easy acquisition of alcohol and cigarettes; the statistically proven and academically buttressed “real killer”. The US is wrong in turning an apathetic eye to the cocaine parties of the rich. The US is wrong in jailing kids for venial cannibus possession. The US is wrong in their hypocrsiy, their ignorance and their outmoded, conservative, un-evolved way of thinking when it comes to so-called ‘illict’ drugs… and Mexico is paying for it. I hope the US is proud of themselves. :o ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/145 "2010-12-26T13:32:35Z")
> [@Brandinho](#): > > The only way this is ever going to stop is if a concerned party with a LOT of resources hired a PMC to go down there and hand the Zetas and the like their own heads on a plate. The problem is that aside from altruism, I don’t see what motivation anybody would have to do this. Mexico’s almost beyond help. Simplistic and ignorant. More violence is never the solution although that seems to be the USA’s default solution to problems they help create. Legalization is the only way to stop the violence. Hoe are you doing with the Afghanistan opium trade BTW? ---
**Author:** ![dudemanjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@dudemanjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dudemanjack)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/146 "2010-12-26T16:23:49Z")
If legalization is the answer, wouldn’t it have to also be legalized in Mexico to fix the problem? You can’t solely blame the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/147 "2010-12-26T16:26:20Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Actually, I would assume that legalizing drugs ( all, both hard and soft\* ) whilst laudable, leading to a fast steep price decline — whilst removing the gang’s profits ( who would just move straight to other avenues, since the problem isn’t that drug-dealers are murderous unpleasant thugs but that they will continue to be murderous unpleasant thugs since that is their nature ) This is silly. People become drug dealers because it’s an easy way to make a lot of money. There isn’t a fixed supply of criminals in every society. Rather, people become criminals when the risk outweighs the reward. Lower the reward, and you have fewer criminals. Sure, there are a lot of people who are willing to cheat, rob and kill for money. But there isn’t a lot of money in random killing. Drug dealers don’t kill for fun, they kill to protect their business. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/148 "2010-12-26T19:04:35Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > This is silly. > > People become drug dealers because it’s an easy way to make a lot of money. There isn’t a fixed supply of criminals in every society. Rather, people become criminals when the risk outweighs the reward. Lower the reward, and you have fewer criminals. Sure, there are a lot of people who are willing to cheat, rob and kill for money. But there isn’t a lot of money in random killing. Drug dealers don’t kill for fun, they kill to protect their business. What did they do before drugs ? ( and before the progressive implementation of alcohol prohibition if you’re going down that route ). They made money from stealing, brigandry, gambling, prostitution, killing for hire, kidnapping, taking donations from the faithful and any other form of wealth creation that poor but honest people under the same pressures eschewed. People don’t do bad things because there is no other choice: they do them because they like doing them. If there is no other way to sustain life — the highest biological imperative — than by stealing, that is acceptable; but the people owning the cartels or running mafias around the world don’t do it because they are in danger of starvation. If you are willing to kill to protect your drug business, then morally you are willing to kill for any beneficial reason. And people always find justificatory reasons to absolve themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/149 "2010-12-26T19:11:42Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > As it stands now, we are the ones paying the heavy price for the illegal drug consumption in your country. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > And CB wins the thread. > > The issue isn’t Mexico at its root…it’s American demand for illegal drugs. Without that and the money it brings drug cartels would be out of business almost immediately. I don’t understand this argument at all. By this logic, Al-Queda should get off scot free for 9/11 cause we were all being so heathenistic in the States. I mean, if we all just became good conservative Muslims none of this would have happened, would it? Countries need to be responsible for what happens within their own borders. You can’t blame your problems on some external stimulus. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/150 "2010-12-26T19:30:05Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > What did they do before drugs ? ( and before the progressive implementation of alcohol prohibition if you’re going down that route ). They made money from stealing, brigandry, gambling, prostitution, killing for hire, kidnapping, taking donations from the faithful and any other form of wealth creation that poor but honest people under the same pressures eschewed. Or they themselves were the “poor but honest” people in question. Where exactly do you think criminals come from? They aren’t a separate species. > [@Claverhouse](#): > > People don’t do bad things because there is no other choice: they do them because they like doing them. They do it because they enjoy it? What, do you think drug dealers get a little orgasm or something every time they make a sale, or that burglars get off on breaking into places? Criminals typically do what they do because they believe it’s simply more profitable to be a criminal. Or they do it because they think there IS no other choice. > [@Claverhouse](#): > > If you are willing to kill to protect your drug business, then morally you are willing to kill for any beneficial reason. That doesn’t follow. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/151 "2010-12-26T20:42:35Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > What did they do before drugs ? ( and before the progressive implementation of alcohol prohibition if you’re going down that route ). They made money from stealing, brigandry, gambling, prostitution, killing for hire, kidnapping, taking donations from the faithful and any other form of wealth creation that poor but honest people under the same pressures eschewed. > > People don’t do bad things because there is no other choice: they do them because they like doing them. If there is no other way to sustain life — the highest biological imperative — than by stealing, that is acceptable; but the people owning the cartels or running mafias around the world don’t do it because they are in danger of starvation. > > If you are willing to kill to protect your drug business, then morally you are willing to kill for any beneficial reason. And people always find justificatory reasons to absolve themselves. Before the drug cartels became so large and profitable, far less people were involved in criminal activity. All of the other illicit activities some have mentioned have always existed and will continue to do so. But all of them together don’t produce 10% of what the drug business generates. I personally know people who would have never stolen a car, or kidnap someone or be involved in some other type of criminal activity that are now involved in the drug trade. The temptation of vast fortunes was just too much. Being that they are nowhere near as profitable, far less people are needed to carry out these other crimes. They do not generate the huge sums need to finance arms purchases and corrupt the justice and political systems. The large amounts of money now held by the cartels will wind up laundered and financing legitimate businesses. Legalization will be their ticket out of a trade that the way it stands, once you are involved the only way out is in a coffin or prison cell. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/152 "2010-12-26T20:48:51Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > I don’t understand this argument at all. By this logic, Al-Queda should get off scot free for 9/11 cause we were all being so heathenistic in the States. I mean, if we all just became good conservative Muslims none of this would have happened, would it? > > Countries need to be responsible for what happens within their own borders. You can’t blame your problems on some external stimulus. You should heed your own words. I have never claimed that the people involved in illegal activity should not be held accountable. They deserve what they get. No tears here for a headless Zeta. But innocent people like myself, which make up 99.9% of this country are suffering the consequences of prohibition. Just because we live across an international border doesn’t mean what happens in your country doesn’t create problems that we are helpless to resolve and you bear no responsibility. If Calderón legalized all drugs tomorrow can you honestly say there would be no repercussions from your government? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/153 "2010-12-27T00:16:05Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Simplistic and ignorant. More violence is never the solution although that seems to be the USA’s default solution to problems they help create. Legalization is the only way to stop the violence. > > Hoe are you doing with the Afghanistan opium trade BTW? “Violence” despite its supposed uselessness has brought down the gangs in Colombia. Plus even if we did legalize drugs how do we punish the cartel members who already have commited their horrible crimes? The cartel members are not ideological fanatics like the Al-Qaeda or Taliban-fear and terror tactics will work against them and so will assassinations, executions, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/154 "2010-12-27T00:16:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or they themselves were the “poor but honest” people in question. Where exactly do you think criminals come from? They aren’t a separate species. Aww… _que the sadder themes from The Godfather_ ‘_They only wanted to make their living and be decent citizens; but a cruel society and people’s prejudice against being hit on the head with crowbars forced them to turn to crooked ways to survive_’. However, millions of Sicilian and Italian immigrants managed in America without becoming criminals. > [@](#): > > They do it because they enjoy it? What, do you think drug dealers get a little orgasm or something every time they make a sale, or that burglars get off on breaking into places? Well, I daresay chatshow presenters enjoy it after a good show… More probably, cartel bosses enjoy the power that they accrue rather than the mechanics of each hit. They still chose that path because they were predisposed to being violent thugs rather than saying ‘_Thuggery is the best career choice for me_.’ People aren’t blank slates who will follow exactly the same route as each other if nurture and opportunity is equal. > [@](#): > > Criminals typically do what they do because they believe it’s simply more profitable to be a criminal. Or they do it because they think there IS no other choice. A lot of girls enter porn ( which I am _not_ saying is criminal ); most girls, however equally beautiful do not, despite poverty etc.. Again, the girls who don’t survive. The ones who do prefer it as a choice. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t follow. If you are willing to decapitate people merely to sustain one’s business [which most small businesspeople and corporations in North America are not], then it follows that you have no qualms about murdering people for equally trivial reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/155 "2010-12-27T00:41:03Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Aww… _que the sadder themes from The Godfather_ ‘_They only wanted to make their living and be decent citizens; but a cruel society and people’s prejudice against being hit on the head with crowbars forced them to turn to crooked ways to survive_’. > > However, millions of Sicilian and Italian immigrants managed in America without becoming criminals. And what has that to do with anything? > [@Claverhouse](#): > > Well, I daresay chatshow presenters enjoy it after a good show… More probably, cartel bosses enjoy the power that they accrue rather than the mechanics of each hit. They still chose that path because they were predisposed to being violent thugs rather than saying ‘_Thuggery is the best career choice for me_.’ People aren’t blank slates who will follow exactly the same route as each other if nurture and opportunity is equal. And do you have any _evidence_ that they aren’t motivated by profit? Your theory doesn’t work. If criminals commit crimes because they like them and not for profit, then why are most crime for profit in the first place? How do you explain rising or falling crime rates? Why are poor neighborhoods crime ridden? Your theory of crime is just another in the long line of attempts to pretend that criminals are some sort of biologically inferior subspecies. You might as well go back to diagnosing criminal tendencies with head bumps. > [@Claverhouse](#): > > A lot of girls enter porn ( which I am _not_ saying is criminal ); most girls, however equally beautiful do not, despite poverty etc.. Again, the girls who don’t survive. The ones who do prefer it as a choice. That’s just silly. People do jobs they dislike because they pay better all the time. > [@Claverhouse](#): > > If you are willing to decapitate people merely to sustain one’s business [which most small businesspeople and corporations in North America are not], then it follows that you have no qualms about murdering people for equally trivial reasons. Plenty of people don’t regard business as trivial. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/156 "2010-12-27T01:57:54Z")
Couple questions: When we say “Mexican drugs” what do we mean more precisely? Don’t the US & Canada grow most of their own primo organic hydroponic seedless medical-grade pot? Does anyone buy Mexican anymore? Cocaine and heroin products probably come mainly through Mexico. Do they come _from_ Mexico too? That is, are they grown there? What about the other stuff? Meth, Ecstasy, LSD, etc. Isn’t a lot of that home grown/made? I’m just wondering if more drugs originate in Mexico or get transported through Mexico. Seems unfair to blame Mexico solely while other countries are obviously letting the exports out of their own countries. Speaking of exports, what is the deal with American guns? Where are these guns actually manufactured, and how do so many get sold where they’re not supposed to? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/157 "2010-12-27T02:37:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > “Violence” despite its supposed uselessness has brought down the gangs in Colombia. Plus even if we did legalize drugs how do we punish the cartel members who already have commited their horrible crimes? The cartel members are not ideological fanatics like the Al-Qaeda or Taliban-fear and terror tactics will work against them and so will assassinations, executions, etc. In the first place you are mistaken about the end to violence in Colombia. They still have more than they’d like. And I’m not sure why you say how do “we” punish those guilty of the violence. Are you Mexican? And finally are you suggesting we (meaning us, as in Mexico, not you meaning Americans) use illegal violence to castigate the cartels? We have laws in our country that prevent the government from using terror tactics to enforce the law. I say we legalize. And let you figure out what to do about your drug problem. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/158 "2010-12-27T07:45:40Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > In Spanish. > > [http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2010/12/21/index.php?section=politica&article=005n1pol](http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2010/12/21/index.php?section=politica&article=005n1pol) The question remains, though, do you believe their claims that oil is very difficult to steal (or maybe they mean pointless, actually, since it’s unrefined) so it must be an equipment failure? There are a great many people in this country who get brilliant ideas for thief and destruction of things they can’t use, so I’m not sure that being illogical means it has to have been an accident. Though I have to admit, I’m not sure what “fuga” means, so I’m not entirely following Labastida Ochoa’s argument. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/159 "2010-12-27T13:47:50Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > The question remains, though, do you believe their claims that oil is very difficult to steal (or maybe they mean pointless, actually, since it’s unrefined) so it must be an equipment failure? There are a great many people in this country who get brilliant ideas for thief and destruction of things they can’t use, so I’m not sure that being illogical means it has to have been an accident. Though I have to admit, I’m not sure what “fuga” means, so I’m not entirely following Labastida Ochoa’s argument. _Fuga_ means escape or leak. Labastida is one of the most knowledgeable people on oil industry in the country. He also points out other details that raise doubt as to theft. That was the only link I could find at the time. I had previously heard the leak reports on the radio but couldn’t find a link to them. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615/160 "2010-12-27T14:29:59Z")
I don’t think it’s the fault of the bad USA. There seems to be a certain complacency in the Mexican culture that allows substandard things to continue- not just corruption, but other things, such as a lack of potable drinking water. I realize everyone uses bottled water, but why put up with that extra cost if you could use the tap water, if it wasn’t shitty? This is another example of that complacency- it’s like nobody feels like anything will change, so they don’t bother. That (IMO) is why Mexico has such big problems with the drug cartels. Sure, the cartels grew because of the drug trade, but their toleration is due to this complacency on the part of the people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-mexico/564615.md?page=9)