# What the heck happened to see-saw this KLM 777? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 1, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751 "2015-08-01T20:29:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/1 "2015-08-01T20:29:36Z")
See subject. The landing. [STORM!! SCHIPHOL, KLM GEVAARLIJKE LANDING B777 PH-BVB - YouTube](http://youtu.be/02ddnGzxNZs) I’m glad I wasn’t a passenger. Especially at the last few seconds. And, any comments on what the pilots did/do to save everybody’s bacon? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/2 "2015-08-01T20:35:34Z")
Landing in a ferocious crosswind, must have been 40-50 knots easily. Damn. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/3 "2015-08-01T20:57:48Z")
Hell of a job by that pilot. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/4 "2015-08-01T21:06:12Z")
It’s called “crabbing” if you want to look into it. Basically, it is leaning into the wind. Unfortunately, the runways don’t automatically point into the wind, so you have to lean sideways. p.s. now you know why the second runway is at a different angle than the first. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/5 "2015-08-01T21:13:22Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > And, any comments on what the pilots did/do to save everybody’s bacon? Sometimes you just have to focus on landing the aircraft safely within the performance envelope, and not think of how it will look/feel like to the laypeople in the back. Once rode into a wicked swirly landing at BOS in an A300, boy was I useless for the rest of the day… ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/6 "2015-08-01T21:20:23Z")
I was once on the last flight to land in Ft. Lauderdale before an impending hurricane shut down the airport, and let me tell you, that shit is much more fun to watch from a video taken outside of the plane than it is from a window seat on the inside. Half the plane was losing their shit! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/7 "2015-08-01T22:12:33Z")
I landed at Schiphol that day, on a KLM flight, but not that one. It wasn’t good when I landed but not that bad. The weather got really bad that day. There were trees down all over by the next morning, and at least one person died. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/8 "2015-08-01T22:34:27Z")
A “good” landing is any landing that you and all the passengers can walk away from. A “great” landing is any landing that lets you re-use the airplane. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/9 "2015-08-02T01:15:26Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > It’s called “crabbing” if you want to look into it. > > Basically, it is leaning into the wind. > > Unfortunately, the runways don’t automatically point into the wind, so you have to lean sideways. > > p.s. now you know why the second runway is at a different angle than the first. Cool. Never thought that. Or the word “crabbing.” It got extra super gusty by surprise at the last second, or is that to be expected? (I remember the word “ground effects” but I can’t remember if that’s wha that is called.) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/10 "2015-08-02T01:16:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I landed at Schiphol that day, on a KLM flight, but not that one. It wasn’t good when I landed but not that bad. The weather got really bad that day. There were trees down all over by the next morning, and at least one person died. SerenDipity! Wait, somebody died? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/11 "2015-08-02T01:34:56Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Landing in a ferocious crosswind, must have been 40-50 knots easily. Damn. I don’t think so. There was some crosswind there but the rocking of the wings looked more like turbulence, possibly mixed with some PIOs. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/12 "2015-08-02T01:37:41Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Cool. Never thought that. Or the word “crabbing.” > > It got extra super gusty by surprise at the last second, or is that to be expected? (I remember the word “ground effects” but I can’t remember if that’s wha that is called.) It looked pretty rough all the way down so I don’t think the gusts near the ground would have taken them by surprise. Ground effect is the increased efficiency of the wing when it gets close to the ground (within about half the wingspan.) It is not related to turbulence. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/13 "2015-08-02T01:37:55Z")
Check out the crosswind in this [video](http://jalopnik.com/whats-the-hairiest-plane-landing-on-video-838137917). It shows plane after plane landing in it. At what point do they close the airport? I’m not a pilot, but am I right that this looks like a brutal crosswind? The planes are nearly sideways trying to land. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/14 "2015-08-02T08:05:22Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Wait, somebody died? Yes. I forget the details, but I think it was by being crushed by a falling tree or driving into a tree or similar. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/15 "2015-08-02T09:10:23Z")
> [@Honey](#): > > Check out the crosswind in this [url=[What's The Hairiest Plane Landing On Video?](http://jalopnik.com/whats-the-hairiest-plane-landing-on-video-838137917)] layperson question here, the 777 in the first video of that link is coming in “crabbing” but the wheels appear (to my eyes at least) to be pointing straight down the runway. Is it just an optical illusion on my part or can those rear wheels be swivelled to some degree to allow for an off-line landing? I can see the benefit in landing the plane at an angle but having the wheels pointing straight down the runway but I wasn’t aware that planes did this. Or am I just seeing things? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/16 "2015-08-02T13:39:24Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > layperson question here, the 777 in the first video of that link is coming in “crabbing” but the wheels appear (to my eyes at least) to be pointing straight down the runway. > > Is it just an optical illusion on my part or can those rear wheels be swivelled to some degree to allow for an off-line landing? I can see the benefit in landing the plane at an angle but having the wheels pointing straight down the runway but I wasn’t aware that planes did this. > > Or am I just seeing things? It’s an optical illusion created by the bogies hanging down. I think the B52 might have had wheels that could track the centreline but airliners don’t. The B747 has main gear that steer a bit on the ground but none of them have gear that track the centreline while airborne. > [@Honey](#): > > Check out the crosswind in this video. It shows plane after plane landing in it. At what point do they close the airport? > > I’m not a pilot, but am I right that this looks like a brutal crosswind? The planes are nearly sideways trying to land. Yep they can generally handle somewhere around 30-40 knots of crosswind. The airport wouldn’t close just for a crosswind. Different types have different crosswind limits so it’s just up to the crews whether they want to have a go or not. If the crosswind was above the limit then you would definitely have fuel for an alternate but you might have a go at landing anyway. [These](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z2LtHrn9Jw) are pretty strong crosswinds. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/17 "2015-08-02T14:40:53Z")
There is a crosswind component that triggers a decision to land or not land, and that looks like it was pretty close to the not landing limit. This is one example of why automated landing systems will never work in aircraft. Nothing beats a 15,000 hour pilot’s judgment and skill when faced with this type of landing. It may not look all that demanding to a casual observer, but the last second or two before touchdown, there was a lot of aileron, elevator and rudder input to get that beast lined up and rolling safely down the center of the runway. Good job Mr. Pilot. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/18 "2015-08-02T14:43:17Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > It’s an optical illusion created by the bogies hanging down. I think the B52 might have had wheels that could track the centreline but airliners don’t. The B747 has main gear that steer a bit on the ground but none of them have gear that track the centreline while airborne. Ah, OK. Thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/19 "2015-08-02T14:50:41Z")
I don’t see the word “Malaysia” written on the plane … ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751/20 "2015-08-02T15:07:01Z")
Scariest landing of my life was a turboprop in the early 70’s. Gusty crosswind so strong that looking out my window I saw the runway coming straight at me at what seemed like a 30 degree angle. At the very last instant the plane jerked turning into the runway and took a very hard landing. I suspect the pilot took every effort to kill all possible lift, to minimize the chance of a wingtip lifting. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-heck-happened-to-see-saw-this-klm-777/726751.md?page=2)