# What the hell are you people thinking!?!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2004, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977 "2004-02-19T07:10:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/1 "2004-02-19T07:10:07Z")
At the beginning of this month, during that cold snap (you know, the one with -30 weather plus a wind chill dropping it to -40 most days) a daycare took it’s children outside on a fire drill. Most were not wearing coats or even _shoes_. In fact it was discovered they held this fire drill to **teach the kids a lesson** because they hadn’t brought their indoor shoes. Yes, you read that right. A daycare took a bunch of children out in -40 weather, where frostbite can happen in just a couple of minutes without putting them in the proper gear because they didn’t have proper indoor gear. Now I could go on and on about the daycare, its violation of the rules (meant to protect the children) and just the utter STUPIDITY of taking children outside without proper gear in that weather, but I won’t. I am pitting the **parents**. You see these parents are [fighting for the daycare to stay open](http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/CalgarySun/News/2004/02/05/336421.html), after it was decided that this couldn’t be ignored and is shut down for violations. (The link leads to an old article, but this was brought up again today on the news.) Now I can understand not wanting to lose the daycare. It sucks here because you need to get on a waiting list to get in, then pay through the nose once you are in. I’ve had to look into it for myself for when I go back to school. BUT you really WANT to leave your children with a woman who has numerous violations of the rules on her record? You keep saying it’s been blown out of proportion. Suuuuuuure. Taking a bunch of kids out in freezing weather without proper gear to teach them a lesson, and then shutting getting shut down for that **and** other things is out of proportion. Do you not care your child could have gotten frostbite? Hypothermia? But, you say, it was only 4-5 minutes. That is still enough to do harm! As [this](http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/Handouts/frostbit/frostbit.html) site tells us it CAN occur in just minutes. AND[children are at greater risk](http://kidshealth.org/parent/firstaid_safe/emergencies/frostbite.html) than we are! If one of the children had lost part of their ear, or a finger, or a toe would you be doing this? Or did you figure that a little discomfort was worth reminding them not to forget indoor shoes. These are _young_ kids. They can hardly hold a thought together sometimes. Why not the parents make sure they have their bag, with indoor shoes, with them when they leave the house? God… this just pisses me off. They are fighting to be allowed to leave their children with a lady who is considered unfit. What will happen next time? Som kid could get seriously injured. Oh and a quote directly from the owner of the daycare (from a newsclip) “I treat them like I would my own children.” Awww how sweet. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/2 "2004-02-19T07:18:51Z")
I agree. You have to keep in mind, however, that in our increasingly competitive culture, people are willing to put their children at that kind of risk in order to work extra hours so they can buy a bigger SUV than the people next door. As a matter of fact, you give me a good idea for another rant in the Pit… 😃 - Adam ---
**Author:** ![the\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@the\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_Lady)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/3 "2004-02-19T14:09:14Z")
I’m surprised (and pleased) that someone mentioned this. I was furious when I heard about that, and practically apoplectic with rage when I saw the various parents on the news complaining about how they wanted the daycare to stay open. I remember that day. It was really, really, really cold. The thought that ANYONE would make a child go out in that weather improperly dressed is infuriating - and this daycare made them do it as a punishment? When it hit the news that this wasn’t the daycare’s first violation, I can’t say I was surprised… ---
**Author:** ![Horrifying\_Howler\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Horrifying\_Howler\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horrifying_Howler_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/4 "2004-02-19T14:39:53Z")
Something silmilar happened to me in Grade 2, the teacher wanted to show us what would happen if we didn’t bring shoes for class, so we stood outside for half an hour in the rain, then spent the rest of the school day with soaking wet socks. Some teachers should not be allowed near children. ---
**Author:** ![GrizzRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ba0ec/32.png) [@GrizzRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrizzRich)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/5 "2004-02-19T15:15:45Z")
I… \…just don’t know what to say. I _adore_ the daycare where GrizzCub (now just over three years old and doing very well, thankyouverymuch!) spends his days. But, if they pulled a stunt like that, then you can bet the rent that I’d be sure to see that heads rolled! * * * Grizzly. Please remember that after you’re through tangling with the Grizz in this matter, there’s GrizzWife waiting her turn…and you DON’T want that! ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/6 "2004-02-19T15:23:04Z")
If they’d done that to my kid they’d have had a bit fat lawsuit to deal with. (Yeah, I know, I know, but sometimes a lawsuit is a GOOD thing.) Even I know that’s dangerous, and I’ve never lived in such a climate. And I certainly would never in a million years take my kid back there, even if they did manage to stay open. Putting my kid in danger like that is simply NOT acceptable. Period. I don’t have kids, but I find it hard to imagine my response would be different if I did. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/7 "2004-02-19T16:54:03Z")
> [@Magayuk](#): > > Something silmilar happened to me in Grade 2, the teacher wanted to show us what would happen if we didn’t bring shoes for class, so we stood outside for half an hour in the rain, then spent the rest of the school day with soaking wet socks. Some teachers should not be allowed near children. Were you in the second grade along with Huckleberry Finn? Why weren’t ya’ll wearing shoes?! ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/8 "2004-02-19T17:12:27Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Were you in the second grade along with Huckleberry Finn? Why weren’t ya’ll wearing shoes?! _shrug_ When I was in grade school (mid-1970s), we’d wear our big snow boots to school and we’d have to leave them on shoe-mats in the hall so we didn’t track snow and water all over. Our schoolyard used to be part of the railway station so much of the sand ouside was _black_ – literally there was a lot of coal dust (gah! I’m surprised we all didn’t get poisoned from it) so we left our shoes on the mats in the summer too, to keep classrooms clean. Most kids just sat in class with socks on their feet (some had slipper shoes). It’s not like we were all barefoot. I come home as an adult I leave my soggy winter boots in the hall and walk around my apartment in socks. Same sort of thing. Track less dirt around. I would assume that nowawadays for health and safety issues everyone _must_ bring indoor footwear or some kind. And we did have an unexpected fire drill (electricians had set the thing off accidentally) and a bunch of us stood in the snow dancing to keep our feet from freezing. So there was a memo sent to parents asking that we all have indoor footwear available. I got red slip-on shoes that looked like converse. Loved them! ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/9 "2004-02-19T17:53:02Z")
> [@FoamFighter](#): > > I agree. You have to keep in mind, however, that in our increasingly competitive culture, people are willing to put their children at that kind of risk in order to work extra hours so they can buy a bigger SUV than the people next door. As a matter of fact, you give me a good idea for another rant in the Pit… 😃 > > - Adam And of course you have cites verifying that these parents are indeed all money-worshipping, child-neglecting, status mongers who work only because they want to and not because they, oh I don’t know, need to EAT on a regular basis? Or, in other words, what in the holy hell does that have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/10 "2004-02-19T18:28:14Z")
What do you want to do? Raise a generation of pussies? I figure if any of the kids died or got frostbite, you would have mentioned that, so what did this do except toughen them up and teach them to bring their damn indoor shoes to school. That’s not so hard to do. How many times did the daycare tell them to bring their indoor shoes before they had to resort to this. Just how many times do you figure the daycare has to say, “OK, Timmy, I’m giving you a time out because you didn’t bring your indoor shoes” before they realize its not getting through histhick little skull? I bet Timmy got the message this time. Of course the parents want the place to stay open. They don’t want their kids growing up to be fuckin’ sissies. They don’t want them growing up to be the kind of person (no names) who would SUE the daycare center for trying to teach their kid a lesson after they personally left the kid at that daycare. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/11 "2004-02-19T18:42:42Z")
One parent may support something idiotic, but when a group of parents are supporting this daycare administration, you have to ask yourself why. For another perspective, see [this cite](http://www.cfcn.ca/servlet/RTGAMArticleHTMLTemplate/A/20040207/daycare?brand=generic&hub=&tf=CFCNPlus/generic/hubs/frontpage.html&cf=CFCNPlus/generic/hubs/frontpage.cfg&slug=daycare&date=20040207&archive=CFCNPlus&ad_page_name=&nav=home&subnav=fullstory) > [@](#): > > The province says the daycare was punishing some children when it sent them outside in the cold without their shoes. But many parents say the province has it wrong. > > Beck says the children were sent outside during a scheduled fire drill. She says no one was being punished and no one was hurt. 1. The fire drill was a scheduled excercise, not done “to punish the kids” 2. Forget the frostbite crap. No one got hurt. Period! This is what a fire drill is supposed to accomplish folks. It brought awareness to the problem of not having shoes on in the event of a fire. Can you fucking imagine how long it would take to get a bunch of pre-schoolers to find their winter boots? Can you imagine a bunch of unshod preschoolers being ushered out in a real fire in cold weather, which is not uncommon in Calgary in the winter? For sure there will be frostbite then. I’m going to check with my sister-in- law in Red Deer, to make sure her kids are properly shod. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/12 "2004-02-19T19:24:59Z")
Here’s a good lesson for kids: “If the school is on fire when its cold outside, first put on your boots. After that if you have to go to the bathroom, go. If you’re hungry, have a little snack first because we may be outside for a while.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/13 "2004-02-19T19:44:17Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > 1. The fire drill was a scheduled excercise, not done “to punish the kids” [Calgary Sun](http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/CalgarySun/News/2004/02/04/335248.html) > [@](#): > > “This wasn’t part of a normal fire drill, it was disciplinary action and corporal punishment is not allowed in day care facilities,” said Child and Family Services manager Tom Rosettis. Day-care officials declined comment yesterday. He-says, she-says, and the only people who know what really happened aren’t saying a thing. Something’s wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/14 "2004-02-19T20:01:20Z")
I did more looking and the center did say something. > [@](#): > > [The Globe and Mail](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040204.wdaycare04/BNStory/National/) > At the time, the daycare said part of the goal was to teach children to always have footwear on while inside the centre. > [@](#): > > [The Globe and Mail](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040130.wdayc31/BNStory/National/) > Mr. Rosettis said that the daycare had already had its required monthly fire drill — for which, he said, youngsters are allowed to put on appropriate clothing — on Jan. 8. However, Ms. Mortuza (the owners’ daughter) said that that drill had been for its preschool children, and that Monday’s drill was the regular monthly one for older children, who can come before school, at lunch time and after school. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/15 "2004-02-19T20:06:20Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > What do you want to do? Raise a generation of pussies? > > I figure if any of the kids died or got frostbite, you would have mentioned that, so what did this do except toughen them up and teach them to bring their damn indoor shoes to school. That’s not so hard to do. How many times did the daycare tell them to bring their indoor shoes before they had to resort to this. > > Just how many times do you figure the daycare has to say, “OK, Timmy, I’m giving you a time out because you didn’t bring your indoor shoes” before they realize its not getting through histhick little skull? I bet Timmy got the message this time. > > Of course the parents want the place to stay open. They don’t want their kids growing up to be fuckin’ sissies. They don’t want them growing up to be the kind of person (no names) who would SUE the daycare center for trying to teach their kid a lesson after they personally left the kid at that daycare. Pre-school kids have no control over whether or not their parents bring indoor shoes to the daycare center. Why is it appropriate to punish someone for something they can’t possibly be responsible for and they have no power to change? It would have been more appropriate to punish the parents by either instituting a fee for each time the proper equipment was not provided or to tell them their child couldn’t stay that day if they didn’t have the right stuff. ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/16 "2004-02-19T20:10:15Z")
I’ve been thinking about this, reaching far far back into the cobwebby corners of my memory to my own grade-school days and firedrills. As I remember it, we were immediately to leave the building when the fire bell rang. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, just get up, get out, and get safe. And this was in Ohio with severe winter weather, at a Catholic school with thin polyester uniforms. Yes, we were cold. Yes, it sucked. No, no one ever suffered long-term harm from the practice. Of course, a daycare center is a bit different than a school, but John’s last link there makes it seem like the children involved _were_ school-aged. So, in the absence of the full story on this one, I’m going to tenatively side with the parents. I’m assuming that they love their kids just like I love mine, and if they’re fighting to keep the center open then they probably know something(s), both about the fire-drill in question and the day-to-day workings at the center, that I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/17 "2004-02-19T20:19:55Z")
> [@mornea](#): > > Pre-school kids have no control over whether or not their parents bring indoor shoes to the daycare center. > > Why is it appropriate to punish someone for something they can’t possibly be responsible for and they have no power to change? > > It would have been more appropriate to punish the parents by either instituting a fee for each time the proper equipment was not provided or to tell them their child couldn’t stay that day if they didn’t have the right stuff. You see, I think they should make them go stand in the cold with no shoes on whether there’s a fire-drill or not, otherwise they’re just going to wind up as a bunch of snot-nosed sissies, if its not too late already. ---
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/18 "2004-02-20T00:11:09Z")
> [@belladonna](#): > > I’m assuming that they love their kids just like I love mine, and if they’re fighting to keep the center open then they probably know something(s), both about the fire-drill in question and the day-to-day workings at the center, that I don’t. I’m sure they do love their kids, and I’m sure they know more about the day to day runnings of this daycare. What I’m thinking of though is that this _is not_ their first offence. They have broken regulations, set in place to keep the kids safe, before. You can go and request these records from the people who deal with DayCares and the daycare is required to disclose anything on their record. This means people have complained before, someone must have complained now. Maybe not to the daycare lady, but someone did complain. Which is why it was investigated. Taking this latest incident and _others_ they decided to close it. The parents want to get the license for the daycare put in the parents associations name and then _hire the lady who did this_ to run the daycare. Yeah this time no one got hurt, no one got frostbite or anything else (though considering the cold I bet some of those kids had frostnip, not as bad and you don’t need to take them to the doctors to deal with it). The question is what will she do next time? If this was a usual firedrill the children would have been lined up at the door to go outside, but they wouldn’t actually do so. I wouldn’t want to stand outside in -30 weather for 5 minutes with the wind blowing and without a jacket or shoes, why would I take a kid out in that? Be them preschool or elementary. Children may be more resilient but they are also more susceptible to the cold, _especially_ without proper gear. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/19 "2004-02-20T00:47:31Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > You see, I think they should make them go stand in the cold with no shoes on whether there’s a fire-drill or not, otherwise they’re just going to wind up as a bunch of snot-nosed sissies, if its not too late already. What’s so great about stoicism? “The squeaky wheel gets the grease,” y’know. Besides, it’s not like our forefathers had this daily “stand outside without shoes in winter” regimen. I just don’t understand why you think this particular example is a battle worth fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977/20 "2004-02-20T01:10:23Z")
I remember a time I went outside in an Alberta winter without proper gear. I was going to go across Stony Plain Road to have a smoke. I crossed the four lanes of traffic, realized it was _too fucking cold_, and went back inside. My ears froze, and were painful enough to make sleep difficult for about a week and a half. The daycare should be closed, and then burned to the ground. Stupid fuckers. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-are-you-people-thinking/229977.md?page=2)